Thank you for the update. I’ve been looking for one.Hi Everyone!
(I'm going to link to this post later on in a mass update to folks still waiting on BMDs, so, apologies for any redundancy there.)
I know it's been a while since I've posted an update, and a lot of folks have been, understandably, sending in inquiries about their BMD shipments.
It's been a bit of a roller coaster trying to get all caught up on the BMD shipments with all of the hardware shortages. I'm not super happy with how everything has gone, but we've definitely been doing our best. Admittedly, we really didn't expect the demand for this service to be significantly beyond our initial BMD batch within as short of a time as it was.
The TL;DR version:
We eventually decided we just had to do a pretty major hardware redesign based on actually-available hardware components, and validating that design has taken a lot longer than anticipated. With a hardware redesign also comes software changes, which also take time. We've devoted our efforts and resources to completing all of that instead of some other things like finishing the previously noted website changes (which why some things are still broken on the website and why we never actually updated the pricing or removed the promo pricing as of yet).
New units are being built while we finalize testing and should go out pretty soon.
Longer version:
We were on track to get all caught up on BMD shipments when the initial component shortage caught us. As noted before, we had some inventory of the chips needed to complete that batch, but turns out that wasn't all that was missing. In their turn-key efforts to complete our production batch, a couple of other components were replaced with pin-compatible alternative parts. These worked fine on the bench for programming and testing, but turns out in our haste to get these completed we did not realize these were not automotive rated replacement components. (Getting a bit more technical here, as a performance vs cost measure, there are in fact some components on the unit that are not specifically automotive rated, so this isn't completely unusual. But, the components that aren't rated as such are also not required to be 100% reliable across the automotive temperature and vibration ranges, and the other components take this potential instability into account. This is all fine, since this isn't a mission critical device required for operating the vehicle. In an absolute worst case scenario.... we just ship another one. It can't damage anything or cause other problems. However, the components in question that were substituted by our fabricator are components that do need to operate reliably in an automotive environment and thus need to be automotive rated.)
While these units would probably work for some time in the wild without issue, we definitely don't want our customers to routinely have to physically tinker with this device. Kind of defeats the purpose if you have to mess with it all the time to ensure it's functioning. While there is a small chance a normal unit can get into an unrecoverable state and require a physical unplug/re-plug to correct it, these are generally super rare due to the design (with our existing fleet we've had a total of 2 such events to-date). In our testing of the units from the last batch, we found that such instances were quite common and therefore these units would not be super useful for our customers.We're going to use them for some in-house prototype and testing projects so they don't complete go to waste, but... still kind of a waste unfortunately.
We did get units from a previously commissioned smaller batch, which did all ship out to customers who were signed up and already out of OEM warranty. We also hand-built some of the units in-house using the remaining hardware we had on-hand from in-house development and testing (admittedly, not many). Not enough for everyone, unfortunately, and we prioritized those shipments based on a handful of factors (order date, time out of warranty, etc).
That said, the hardware redesign is completed, software changes are tentatively completed (still tweaking some things, but it's functional) and we're running everything through full validation. Since everything looks promising, we've already got a production batch to complete our entire shipping queue twice over already in progress. This should put us in a good spot moving forward. Our original design went through over a year of testing and validation in our closed beta program, so dialing in that level of reliability with the new design in a short period has been a pretty good challenge.
At the risk of ending up in continued Elon-time type situation, I'm reluctant to give an estimated time frame on this... but I specifically waited until there weren't any major potential speedbumps left on the process before posting an update at all.
My apologies to everyone who's signed up and hasn't yet received their BMD. I know it's been way longer than it should be. As noted before, as a consolation to everyone who's signed up and doesn't receive their BMD within our timeframe quoted on the website, we're extending their plans by a month at no cost. Also, anyone who hasn't received their BMD yet also hasn't even started the countdown on their service plan, so no worries there.
While we technically don't cover problems while the BMD isn't connected, we realize it's also not your fault if you haven't received one after the estimated ship time. So, unofficially, we're still going to work with people who paid, are still waiting, and have some sort of battery issue. We've so far not had many cases of this, and we've handled it such that did our best to diagnose the issue with the customers, got the car, used Tesla logs to pinpoint the timing and validity of the issue, and resolved it for them. Even though no BMD was active, in fairness we started the clock on their plan as if it were activated by a BMD at the end of the BMD shipping-estimate time. Both us and the customers found this to be more than fair. Again, while our terms are pretty specific... we're going to make a best effort attempt to take care of folks who have any issues regardless.
All of that said, thanks again to everyone who's signed up and rode this out with us. It's much appreciated. I will point out that if for whatever reason you want to cancel your plan, you can do so and we'll refund you. I fully understand that these shipments are taking forever, and fully understand if that's what anyone decides to do. No hard feelings whatsoever.
Once everyone who signed up has a BMD in hand, we're going to move forward with our website updates/improvements.
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Semi-related: Our LTE carrier is working with us on some international data rates. We're going to launch a monitoring-only BMD rental service for customers outside of North America once we're all caught up on BMD shipments. We won't be offering this in North America, however, except for folks with vehicles we can't or won't cover under our program for whatever reason (failed initial battery qualification, unsupported model such as the original 60s, etc). The BMDs are VIN-paired, so only work with the vehicle they're assigned to. (In fact, on the technical side, the VIN as seen on the vehicle's CAN bus is part of the data used to unlock encrypted connectivity to our backend services.) The pricing model for that is going to be a deposit for the full replacement price of the BMD, plus a periodic subscription fee, with the deposit refundable once the BMD is returned.
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More notes as we move along:
One addition to the site is going to be a beta of closed referral program. Initially, I'm going to personally reach out to a few folks that I think would be a good fit for that program and see how it goes and get some feedback. If you feel like you have a platform or something that might be a fit for it, drop me a line. I don't think we'll ever do an open referral program, since we don't want to invite people to spam others, but we'll see how that goes.
While we haven't been working on our major site updates, we do have some improvements in the works for the BMD dashboard. We have a customer-facing API in testing, for those who want that, with access to pretty much everything the BMD uses both in semi-real-time and historic data. The dashboard is also going to have the option to track vehicle alerts that are available to the BMD (generally most relevant ones are) so you can alerts that may normally be hidden outside of Service Mode and the like.
More technical:
Also, we've done some brainstorming on opening up some official software access to the BMD for those who want that. We're doing a server-side customer accessible API for sure, but actual customer code running on the BMD itself is doable.
LTE bandwidth being the key concern with this, we're going to try this on a bit of an honor system at first. Further, as part of the process, we're going to ask that, again on the honor system, that you share anything cool you do with the BMD so that other's might benefit from it. If it works out, we might do a thing on the dashboard to install custom modules and such to your BMD.
To be clear, things proprietary to 057 still won't be accessible, but we'll make it so your code can have access to CAN messages and network connectivity. We haven't decided if we're going to allow transmitting of any CAN messages to the car... but if there's a legit use case proposed we might consider it on a case-by-case, with us still in control of the exact messages to be sent since this would have to be done by the trusted side of the module. The hardware design has both a trusted and untrusted portion. The trusted portion runs only 057-signed and encrypted code (encrypted per-BMD, even), the untrusted portion is where a third party could put some custom things, but still not have any access to mess with the vehicle or anything. Admittedly, a savvy person wouldn't have much issue messing with the untrusted portion of the unit, which handles LTE connectivity, even without any help from us, but the trusted portion is the only part that has any actual access to any vehicle CAN data. The untrusted portion is mainly just to handle relaying encrypted data appropriately, so you'd still need some official support from us to access any data at all.
The first BMD software module we expect to have available like this will be the Bluetooth OBD emulator, specifically to make the BMD work with apps like ScanMyTesla, since the hardware on the BMD does have Bluetooth capabilities. It's going to be read only, so any app that relies on sending CAN won't work (I don't believe SMT does this, so all good). (Technical side: On the backend, the data won't be raw CAN at full-rate since this really isn't needed for these apps... instead the BMD is going to just snapshot relevant messages wanted by the apps and relay them periodically (1Hz or so), and leave room for some of the more real-time messages (like power/current/pack voltage) at around 10Hz. Works well in testing, and SMT doesn't know the difference.)
Way more stuff in the works than I have time to write about here, but will get more out as things progress.
Thanks again!
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Vendor Tesla Model S Battery Extended Service Plans from 057 Technology
- Thread starter wk057
- Start date
Hi!
That is great news, thanks for sharing, especially looking forward to the actual pricing and ordering it! Created an account during promo phase in hope of a service like that! Having a 2015-11 S85 with 270000km in Germany, still under warranty.
BR Oaito.
That is great news, thanks for sharing, especially looking forward to the actual pricing and ordering it! Created an account during promo phase in hope of a service like that! Having a 2015-11 S85 with 270000km in Germany, still under warranty.
BR Oaito.
Hi All!
new member here, just purchased the 2015 MS 85. Signed up for the warranty with 057 yesterday, will wait for a dongle to have insurance activated.
new member here, just purchased the 2015 MS 85. Signed up for the warranty with 057 yesterday, will wait for a dongle to have insurance activated.
Thank you!
it is hard to validate the deals now with those car prices
2014, S85, free connectivity/Supercharger, Subzero package, yacht interior, air suspension, Pano roof
56k odo, a bit under 40K out of the door.
at 90% charge, it shows me a 231mi estimated range, didn't charge to 100% yet ( and I don't think I will need to )
So far I LOVE the car, but after diving deeper into the forum decided to purchase a warranty for a battery pack. I hope won't need it, but who knows.
PS: going to Baltimore Aquarium with the kids this Sunday, lovely place!
it is hard to validate the deals now with those car prices
2014, S85, free connectivity/Supercharger, Subzero package, yacht interior, air suspension, Pano roof
56k odo, a bit under 40K out of the door.
at 90% charge, it shows me a 231mi estimated range, didn't charge to 100% yet ( and I don't think I will need to )
So far I LOVE the car, but after diving deeper into the forum decided to purchase a warranty for a battery pack. I hope won't need it, but who knows.
PS: going to Baltimore Aquarium with the kids this Sunday, lovely place!
ayavner
Member
Glad I stumbled onto this thread - just created an account over at @wk057 and looks like I'm eligible! This may have been answered over the past 8 pages, but if I take the car in to Tesla SC for service should I remove the BMD just to avoid *that* conversation?
Does the BMD tell you what fraction of my original kwh the battery is currently at? Am I possibly driving a P81D now? :-D
Does the BMD tell you what fraction of my original kwh the battery is currently at? Am I possibly driving a P81D now? :-D
Tesla service, to-date, either doesn't notice or doesn't care about the BMD.
The BMD dashboard will note usable kWh, among other things.
I'll note for completeness that we're still working through chip shortage induced snags getting BMDs out to everyone quickly.
We'll be updating our ToS (existing customers can choose to accept the updated version) to be clear that we will still provide service for covered failures if a failure occurs after signing up and after the BMD estimated ship window in the event we haven't shipped the BMD, as long as the vehicle's logs confirm the vehicle had no failures prior to signup and that other terms have been abided by despite the lack of BMD. This is only fair, and is rhe right thing for us to do.
Effectively gets you free time covered if we're late shipping the BMD if no failures happen in that time period, since your plan wont activate until the BMD is installed. If there is a failure before then, the updated terms allow activation of the plan without a BMD with a start date at the end of the estimated BMD ship window, since we'd have been effectively covering from that point.
We've already done several no-BMD-yet repairs/replacements, because again, it's the right thing for us to do.
The BMD dashboard will note usable kWh, among other things.
I'll note for completeness that we're still working through chip shortage induced snags getting BMDs out to everyone quickly.
We'll be updating our ToS (existing customers can choose to accept the updated version) to be clear that we will still provide service for covered failures if a failure occurs after signing up and after the BMD estimated ship window in the event we haven't shipped the BMD, as long as the vehicle's logs confirm the vehicle had no failures prior to signup and that other terms have been abided by despite the lack of BMD. This is only fair, and is rhe right thing for us to do.
Effectively gets you free time covered if we're late shipping the BMD if no failures happen in that time period, since your plan wont activate until the BMD is installed. If there is a failure before then, the updated terms allow activation of the plan without a BMD with a start date at the end of the estimated BMD ship window, since we'd have been effectively covering from that point.
We've already done several no-BMD-yet repairs/replacements, because again, it's the right thing for us to do.
On a side note, at this point I'm pretty convinced a huge percentage, if not every single one, of the 2012-2013 S battery packs out there are going to fail at some point within the next few years. Have gathered plenty of data on this. When they fail, the issue is not really correctable aside from a replacement pack, either. If you or someone you know has a 2012-2013 S and plan on keeping it, I'd probably suggest jumping on our service plan program before we update pricing and remove the promo (planned for the first week of July now). No vintage is immune to failures, but probably 90% (guestimating, don't hold me to that) of the replacements we've done over the years have been on 2012-2013 S's.
Anyway, figured I'd note this as I'm sitting here scheduling transport for another 2013 S to bring it to 057 for service.
Anyway, figured I'd note this as I'm sitting here scheduling transport for another 2013 S to bring it to 057 for service.
That is what I call customer-oriented service!
I am awaiting my BMD but my car decided to crap on me this morning. Was driving fine when the error " may not restart" popped up. Aftermath:
BMS_W151 - Vehicle may not restart
BMS_f151 - Unable to start the vehicle
BMS_f071 - Unable to start the vehicle
GTW_w018 - electrical system power reduced
DI_u014 - Unable to drive
still waiting on the tow truck to get it dropped off to Tesla service - what to see what they are going to say. I hope it is not a HV battery issue but something else.
PS: I also noticed last few days that the cluster gauge screen ( the one behind the wheel ) wakes up very slowly - while MCU is good to go, smaller screen takes like 30sec to boot each time I sit in the car. I hope for 12V battery to be the culprit...
We do our best!
Those errors suggest an issue with a HV component other than the battery pack. Specifically, a high voltage isolation fault outside of the battery pack. This could be as simple as the battery heater failing, or could be as serious as the drive unit failing. Normally this is not a battery pack issue, however. It can be, if the BMS is faulty, but usually not.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Thank you for sharing this information on the 2012-2013 battery packs.
Do you have enough data to form an opinion on the 2014-2015 packs?
There were a LOT of revisions in 2014 and 2015. Some are better than others. I don't believe any of the post-2013 packs suffer from the same issues as the pre-2014 packs, however, so I'd expect them to have significantly fewer failures. It'll be hard to quantify with certainty until more are out of warranty, since that definitely skews the data available. But the physical issues that cause the most problems with the early packs were designed away by early 2015.
If you have a fuse panel on the bottom of your pack (v2.0 / "flex" pack), you'll probably be pretty immune to most of the failures of the earlier packs. If you don't (v1.0 or v1.5 packs) you're subject to a lot more potential points of failure.
Obviously all of these packs can outlast the warranty period, and thus have a good chance at a reasonable vehicle life. IANAL, but I wouldn't say it's something Tesla's responsible for taking care of from a legal perspective. The product does what it's supposed to, the earlier versions just don't seem to have the longevity many would like. Just because they made improvements since then that make them more robust doesn't mean they screwed up the early ones.
Some of the issues with early packs got corrected alongside the contactor ("power switch") proactive service Tesla did early on. A lot of the issues with the earliest packs stem from moisture ingress potential, and one of the line items handled with the contactor replacements was to replace the fire blanket with an updated version which has a better seal. For example, if you've got an early car, never had the contactor replacement done, and live in an area where you run the A/C, you'll almost inevitably have a moisture-related battery issue... the A/C condensate drain on the Model S goes right on top of the battery pack's front hump. It was designed to be waterproof... but, doesn't stay that way forever.
Was discussing the 2012-2013 situation with a friend just now, and he actually noted that it "sounds weird" for me to suggest purchasing our service plan for a variant of vehicle that I'm confident has a high chance of failing within the term of the plan. So it's worth explaining that it does actually make sense for everyone involved. Bluntly, we don't offer this stuff to lose money nor is it a huge gamble on our part because of how the rest of our business works.
First, when we end up with one of these failed batteries, we're able to get the bulk of the failed battery pack repurposed for other uses: solar, short range EV conversions, grid arbitrage projects, and much much more. These things will go on to live long productive lives in one form or another, even if that means living on as individual 18650s. This is why we're able to offer this at all. We have a network of clients who regularly purchase these, along with direct sales to the public, and other internal projects that utilize these batteries. Depending on the exact specs after testing, we can recover a good portion of the value from a failed battery pack and close the gap on the cost of the replacement as best possible.
The funds from the service plan program, after covering direct expenses for the program and legally required reserves, go completely towards making more battery pack acquisitions for our continuously moving pool of batteries. This effectively helps us have more fully tested and refurbished replacement packs in our pool ready more quickly for when a customer needs one, and keep our overall costs as low as possible when doing these replacements. It's a capital intense process, with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up on average in one point of the process or another, sometimes much more. The acquisition, testing, refurbishing, and other processes done to these batteries take time, so there are always a lot of batteries at each step of our process. Smoothing out the flow of capital is worthwhile here.
With the service plan program, we can pretty effectively absorb the legitimate failures of service plan customer batteries into our existing model without much, if any, negative impact on our processes... which is something we've spent years refining to the point where it is today. We're undoubtedly the only company in the world that is able to do this successfully and with sufficient volume to be able to offer a worthwhile service to Tesla vehicle owners.
It's a little hard to explain without giving away all of our secrets... but internally, we're setup so that customers on the service plan have a kind of placeholder in our battery processing queue. When a replacement is needed, we mark our queue to designate the next completed compatible pack for the customer, and their core pack is inserted at the start of our process. For us, this is not much different than batteries acquired through other channels (salvage auctions, direct vehicle buys from individuals, etc), so the net effect on our pool of battery processing is minimal or non-existent since we already account for the possibility of problems with battery packs that enter our process, but the BMD system actually helps weed out some worst case situations that we could run into with other acquisition avenues.
For customers that come to us needing a battery replacement without the service plan, we treat them as general battery sales, plus labor, minus the actual internal value of their core pack after examination. They end up at the end of our processing queue (which can take some time, depending on current demand), and their core battery pack ends up handled similarly. The end result is the cost is a higher for the customer than if they had already purchased the service plan (since with the service plan we effectively net out the core cost 1:1, but with a normal replacement always deal with the actual value), and the lead times end up being a bit longer (no jumping the line).
This is the best I can do without giving away our trade secrets and entire internal business model... but hopefully makes more sense.
All of this said, I'm a tech guy and a numbers guy. I can make things work, but I suck at sales and marketing in general. If it doesn't sell itself, I probably can't easily sell it. Extended warranties are not something that people generally get excited about and want to just jump all over.... but I really think this isn't a typical take on this, and is actually a great product/service with a decent value for owners of these cars. The drawback is that I probably don't get the word spread about this stuff as quickly or as far as it probably could be.
First, when we end up with one of these failed batteries, we're able to get the bulk of the failed battery pack repurposed for other uses: solar, short range EV conversions, grid arbitrage projects, and much much more. These things will go on to live long productive lives in one form or another, even if that means living on as individual 18650s. This is why we're able to offer this at all. We have a network of clients who regularly purchase these, along with direct sales to the public, and other internal projects that utilize these batteries. Depending on the exact specs after testing, we can recover a good portion of the value from a failed battery pack and close the gap on the cost of the replacement as best possible.
The funds from the service plan program, after covering direct expenses for the program and legally required reserves, go completely towards making more battery pack acquisitions for our continuously moving pool of batteries. This effectively helps us have more fully tested and refurbished replacement packs in our pool ready more quickly for when a customer needs one, and keep our overall costs as low as possible when doing these replacements. It's a capital intense process, with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up on average in one point of the process or another, sometimes much more. The acquisition, testing, refurbishing, and other processes done to these batteries take time, so there are always a lot of batteries at each step of our process. Smoothing out the flow of capital is worthwhile here.
With the service plan program, we can pretty effectively absorb the legitimate failures of service plan customer batteries into our existing model without much, if any, negative impact on our processes... which is something we've spent years refining to the point where it is today. We're undoubtedly the only company in the world that is able to do this successfully and with sufficient volume to be able to offer a worthwhile service to Tesla vehicle owners.
It's a little hard to explain without giving away all of our secrets... but internally, we're setup so that customers on the service plan have a kind of placeholder in our battery processing queue. When a replacement is needed, we mark our queue to designate the next completed compatible pack for the customer, and their core pack is inserted at the start of our process. For us, this is not much different than batteries acquired through other channels (salvage auctions, direct vehicle buys from individuals, etc), so the net effect on our pool of battery processing is minimal or non-existent since we already account for the possibility of problems with battery packs that enter our process, but the BMD system actually helps weed out some worst case situations that we could run into with other acquisition avenues.
For customers that come to us needing a battery replacement without the service plan, we treat them as general battery sales, plus labor, minus the actual internal value of their core pack after examination. They end up at the end of our processing queue (which can take some time, depending on current demand), and their core battery pack ends up handled similarly. The end result is the cost is a higher for the customer than if they had already purchased the service plan (since with the service plan we effectively net out the core cost 1:1, but with a normal replacement always deal with the actual value), and the lead times end up being a bit longer (no jumping the line).
This is the best I can do without giving away our trade secrets and entire internal business model... but hopefully makes more sense.
All of this said, I'm a tech guy and a numbers guy. I can make things work, but I suck at sales and marketing in general. If it doesn't sell itself, I probably can't easily sell it. Extended warranties are not something that people generally get excited about and want to just jump all over.... but I really think this isn't a typical take on this, and is actually a great product/service with a decent value for owners of these cars. The drawback is that I probably don't get the word spread about this stuff as quickly or as far as it probably could be.
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Well, I'm sold (pending availability of funds).
Caveat: My pack suffers
TIA.
We went back and forth on the brick6 issue a lot internally, and decided that if it's corrected by the stock firmware with no related errors and the vehicle is completely usable, then we don't consider this a failure or disqualify based on it.
If you're getting errors related to it "Maximum Charge Level Reduced" or similar, then that would be different.
No (visible) errors yet 
, and most of the range I lost was restored (the rest could have easily been lost to degradation), though I have noticed a dip in available range recently — from ~264 when I first picked it up in August 2017 (this is a Signature edition with an original battery pack (limited to 90kW) — if not the original (seems odd to have only lost 1 mile to degradation over 4½ years and ~43k miles)) to ~257 before May 2019, down to ~226 between May 2019 and September 2020, then back up to ~250 sometime after that — only to drop to ~244 within the last few weeks (just as I passed 80k miles). I'm sure it's fine.
, and most of the range I lost was restored (the rest could have easily been lost to degradation), though I have noticed a dip in available range recently — from ~264 when I first picked it up in August 2017 (this is a Signature edition with an original battery pack (limited to 90kW) — if not the original (seems odd to have only lost 1 mile to degradation over 4½ years and ~43k miles)) to ~257 before May 2019, down to ~226 between May 2019 and September 2020, then back up to ~250 sometime after that — only to drop to ~244 within the last few weeks (just as I passed 80k miles). I'm sure it's fine. The original signature S batteries were actually the best on degradation-per-mile that I've seen out of every pack type to-date in my testing. Ever since then it's been a bit of a balancing act on performance/range vs degradation... with some worse than others (looking at you, 90 packs...)
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