Tesla Model S gets 26.5 mpg (per some random person's math on PriusChat)

[yobigd20]

heh, not my opinion of course. came across this: Shocking : Tesla Model S gets 26.5 mpg | PriusChat where he calculates that due to inefficiencies and losses from the plant to the car it's about 26.5 mpg, which is states is worse than most avg gas powered cars yadda yadda yadda. and he's referencing this article: How I Gave Up Alternating Current | Mostly Harmless.

honestly I don't know why I'm even starting this thread since this topic gets discussed over, and over, and over, and over again, lol..

 

[davewill]

Meh. He makes a few false equivalences. He's saying that it take 10 gallons of heavy fuel oil to generate 85kWh and that's where his mpg figure comes from...but heavy fuel oil is NOT gasoline. It isn't as energy dense, or anywhere near as expensive. He also compares the price of his lead-acid car battery to the Powerwall pricing. He ignores the fact that he'll have to replace that car batt several times to match the lifetime of the Lithium batteries in the Powerwall.

 

[demundus]

Looks like those in the thread already covered us. Heavy oil and oil based energy on a grid scale is a fraction of the total make up of energy "sources".

 

[Jeff N]

Looks like those in the thread already covered us. Heavy oil and oil based energy on a grid scale is a fraction of the total make up of energy "sources".

As I said over on that PriusChat thread, fueleconomy.gov shows a CO2 full upstream emissions equivalent for a Tesla 70D of 52 mpg of gasoline when using US average electricity.

 

[mikeash]

If you just make up assumptions, you can demonstrate just about anything you want.

Teslas get infinite MPG equivalent, because you can charge them from solar panels and solar panels have no emissions!

Teslas get 1 MPG equivalent, because you can charge them from a crappy broken generator that leaks fuel all over the place when it runs!

I wish people would realize that you have to actually research where the electricity comes from, and can't just pick a generating method at random and run with it.

 

[TaoJones]

Well, yeah, but they've probably accounted, and carefully, for the batteries getting heavier once they are fully charged.

Those darned gallons of sunshine don't get any lighter, yanno. What are we ever to do...

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Well, yeah, but they've probably accounted, and carefully, for the batteries getting heavier once they are fully charged.

Those darned gallons of sunshine don't get any lighter, yanno. What are we ever to do...

You suspend them in water, duh. Everything is lighter in water, I mean, how else would ships float...it's common sense!

 

[Arbitrage]

There's a more well researched study that looked at this. Bottom line was that it varied highly depending on the state because the composition of the energy production in that state. I imagine it's similarly region specific around the rest of the world.

Bottom line, it looks like this:

 

[jdbob]

There's a more well researched study that looked at this. Bottom line was that it varied highly depending on the state because the composition of the energy production in that state. I imagine it's similarly region specific around the rest of the world.

I always found that map questionable. The power mix in Seattle isn't going to be the same as Salt Lake City even though they are both in NWPP. Electricity takes the path of least resistance so you will get the bulk of your power from the closest power generating source. Here in Eastern Oregon I get power from Bonneville Power Administration which is 83.3% Hydro Electric and 10.4% Nuclear.

 

[Arbitrage]

Yeah, I can see where it's too general in a lot of places, but they pretty much just used the eGRID data from the EPA. It's probably too much of a pain to divide up each region exactly, so they just kind of made a general average. Hydro is still 47% in the entire NWPP region, which is one of the highest rates.

However, the general range shows that the US is much better than 26.5mpg, probably closer to ~40-50(?) and will hopefully increase over time as we get more clean sources up. I'm sure there are pocket areas right now that are easy 100+, like in your area of hydro/nuclear.

 

[FlasherZ]

I always found that map questionable.

I find it questionable as well, but perhaps I need to be educated. Given the bulk of Illinois' energy comes from nuclear sources, I'm surprised to see it less than other states nearby that are heavy, heavy coal-burners.

Electricity takes the path of least resistance so you will get the bulk of your power from the closest power generating source.

Just as a nit, electricity doesn't take the path of least resistance. It uses all possible paths in inverse proportion to resistance.

 

[jdbob]

Just as a nit, electricity doesn't take the path of least resistance. It uses all possible paths in inverse proportion to resistance.

OK, true :redface:

In reality it takes the path determined by the utility and transmission line operators.

 

[Ingineer]

Don't forget the opposite argument, how much electricity does it take to drill/extract/pump/refine/deliver/dispense a gallon of gasoline. All the studies I've seen were surprising!

In California the petroleum refineries are the largest single industrial user of electricity.

 

[jcaspar]

Prius owners, by virtue of having bought one, are clearly not the brightest car owners... :tongue:

 

[Shaggy]

I use the argument ALL the time it comes up "well how is the electricity generated?" 1) My power comes from my roof, I have 105% solar replacement. 2) Nobody, and I mean, nobody, considers their gasoline: gets pumped out of the ground, driven or pumped to a tank, pumped to a tanker (50%) and driven around the world OR pumped/driven to a refinery, refined. Then it is again pumped or driven to a gas station, where the person drive to go get the gas. They are worried about the generation of the electricity for my car (mined coal, drilled natural gas, wind, solar, etc). It is never considered how much more efficient the generation and transmission of electricity is or the bottom line of the efficiency of rotating my tires (ultimate goal) from the raw materials.

Our biggest issue is the storage of power which is the super benefit that gasoline has, stored energy potential.

 

[Shaggy]

Prius owners, by virtue of having bought one, are clearly not the brightest car owners... :tongue:

Not fair. It was, for the LONGEST time, the best widely available compromise option for the price. Because of Prius sales, other manufacturers follow. Now there are options from Ford, Honda, Lexus, and others. Now, all bets are off for the PIP, but then I guess they just want the carpool lane...

 

[sorka]

There's a more well researched study that looked at this. Bottom line was that it varied highly depending on the state because the composition of the energy production in that state. I imagine it's similarly region specific around the rest of the world.

Bottom line, it looks like this:

I just posted that in the PriusChat thread.

 

[mikeash]

Not fair. It was, for the LONGEST time, the best widely available compromise option for the price. Because of Prius sales, other manufacturers follow. Now there are options from Ford, Honda, Lexus, and others. Now, all bets are off for the PIP, but then I guess they just want the carpool lane...

The Prius is a good car-as-appliance. I had a Prius v before I got my Model S, and I got it just because it was the best car for my needs at the price. For the roughly $25,000 it cost me new, I couldn't find another car with similar cargo space, passenger room and features. Even ignoring fuel economy, it beat everything else for what I was after.

Obviously, the Model S beats it in every conceivable way, and most of them by a very long shot. But also obviously, you're not going to get a new Model S for $25,000....

 

[sorka]

The Prius is a good car-as-appliance. I had a Prius v before I got my Model S, and I got it just because it was the best car for my needs at the price. For the roughly $25,000 it cost me new, I couldn't find another car with similar cargo space, passenger room and features. Even ignoring fuel economy, it beat everything else for what I was after.

Obviously, the Model S beats it in every conceivable way, and most of them by a very long shot. But also obviously, you're not going to get a new Model S for $25,000....

I just turned 200K on my 2009 Prius. It's had zero defects so far and almost no maintenance. It was at the dealer once for a water pump recall and that's it. Hopefully the MS will be nearly as reliable over the same time span and mileage.

 

[jcaspar]

Not fair. It was, for the LONGEST time, the best widely available compromise option for the price. Because of Prius sales, other manufacturers follow. Now there are options from Ford, Honda, Lexus, and others. Now, all bets are off for the PIP, but then I guess they just want the carpool lane...

And when it came out, it had less highway MPG as a 1993 Geo Metro. (still does) Masterful marketing, not the drive train, made it a revolutionary car.