TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Tesla Model S Survey by Plug In America

Discussion in 'Model S' started by tomsax, May 14, 2013.

  1. tomsax

    tomsax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2008
    Messages:
    867
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    #1 tomsax, May 14, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
    Within a year of release of the Model S, owners began expressing interest in learning more about how the Model S performs over time and miles and how their experience compares to what other owners are observing.

    As part of my work at Plug In America, I started a Nissan Leaf study 2012 and have an ongoing Roadster study. I've added a platform for Model S owners to report and share their experience, for the benefit of the owner community and the wider audience of people considering purchasing a Model S or other electric vehicle.

    My goal is to find answers to questions like these:

    • What should owners, and potential owners, expect from the Model S experience?
    • How does use of the Model S compare to other electric vehicles?
    • How does the Model S battery pack hold up over time and miles?
    • Does climate have an effect on Model S battery pack longevity?
    • How does the Model S compare to other electric vehicles in battery longevity and major maintenance?
    I hope this will be a valuable community resource in both the near future and long term.

    Contribute to the Study

    I invite all Model S owners to participate in this study. I takes just a few minutes to fill out the survey form, available here:


    The survey asks for your name, email and VIN sequence number, but keeps those fields private. Your private contact info will not be used for any purpose other than the survey (although I encourage everyone to join Plug In America's mailing list). Except for those private fields, all of the survey data will be available for others to examine and analyze.

    After you've filled out the form once, there's an update form you can use to correct or add a value, or to do an update with newer info, without filling in the values that haven't changed. Submit as often as you like, records are grouped by vehicle so there's no problem with having multiple reports on the same vehicle.


    Once your Model S is in the survey, you can sort the vehicle data by build date, miles driven, location, etc., to see how your car compares to others. I'm open to suggestion on how to best collect and present the data that matters most to Model S owners.

    Results

    To view results from the study, visit the Survey Results page where you'll find an overview of the participating owners and links to other survey resources.

    The Vehicles List page shows an abbreviated table of the survey data, sortable by various criteria, which provides an easy way to examine some of the most interesting information collected.

    Live Charts

    You can also view a page of charts based on the current data set. From the individual vehicle pages, there's a link to view a chart of that vehicle's reports overlaid on the most current reports for all of the other vehicles in the survey.

    Survey Data

    The full survey data set is available for download on the results page.

    Stay tuned for a report on the study results.
     
  2. dflye

    dflye S Sig Perf 414, VIN 814

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    569
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Filling out the form now, there appears to be a contradiction between the form's validation rules and what is described in the verbiage:
    And yet I get this error when attempting to submit:
    So which is it? Leave it blank, make something up, or wait until car finishes charging? Apparently choice number one, while it is suggested, isn't actually honored.
     
  3. ZBB

    ZBB Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,419
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    For those of us that haven't taken delivery yet (mine arrives in a couple weeks...), how far into ownership would you recommend we start filling this in?

    Question: I just took a look at the current results (with 14 cars already reported...). Could you add battery size to the vehicle list table? Its kind of obvious based on the rated range numbers (ie the 60s are lower), but would be nice to be able to filter once there are more...).
     
  4. wraithnot

    wraithnot Model S VIN #5785

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Messages:
    475
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    I'd suggest submitting updates as often as you feel like it. I was one of the beta testers and submitted three reports. While the main results page only shows the most recent entry, if you click on the link for id 2 you will see links for each of the three reports at the top of the page. I plan to use this to track battery degradation (hopefully lack of battery degradation) over time.

    I agree that listing the vehicle type on the main results page would be really helpful- perhaps even make this the default sort criteria.
     
  5. tomsax

    tomsax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2008
    Messages:
    867
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    It's great to see a bunch of reports coming in all ready, 24 vehicles as I post this just a few hours after announcing the survey!

    Yes, that's at the top of my list. I'm thinking I'll also make it possible to show either size or all vehicles so that you can view whatever set you like and also sort by any of the columns.

    You do have to fill in one, but not both. I assumed that owners would know their rated range after either a standard or max range charge, whichever one they normally use. It's just the number you see on the dash when you start up after a charge. I'll work on making that text clearer.

    I should be able to get both of those changes made in the next day or two.
     
  6. Discoducky

    Discoducky Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,884
    Location:
    Seattle
    Done! Thanks Tom!
     
  7. Lyon

    Lyon 2016 S P100DL, 2016 X P90D

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,989
    Location:
    Eugene, Oregon
    Completed. I had to go into the garage a few times to check on things. I haven't reset one of my trip meters since getting the car and now I'm glad that I didn't... over 5000 miles of energy usage.
     
  8. Frankrb

    Frankrb Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    Henderson, NV
  9. Ben W

    Ben W P85 #61, Roadster #108

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    445
    Location:
    Santa Barbara, CA
    #9 Ben W, May 15, 2013
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
    Done. A few suggestions, which you've probably thought of:

    1. When entering data from a high-mileage trip meter (Trip B), instead of asking for total kWh, perhaps you could ask for average Wh/Mi, which probably most people know off the top of their heads. (Or just ask for either/or.) I have my current lifetime 366Wh/mi burned into my brain at this point, and it's always a happy occasion when it ticks down a notch :)

    2. Speaking of which, it would be nice to see this lifetime Wh/mi shown as a column in the results table.

    3. It would also be nice if there were a way to quickly filter the results by battery size. (And eventually perhaps by tire size, to get an idea of the efficiency differences?)

    4. Battery swap / Charger swap is probably rare enough that it could be condensed to one "Swap" column in the results: B, BC, or C. (or blank.)

    5. Some users have noticed that the rated mileage jumps up by 4 miles when the car is plugged in, and immediately drops 4 miles when the car is unplugged. I presume you're looking for the unplugged number? Presumably the firmware will soon improve this.

    6. I believe that the Model Year and Year Built are redundant? AFAIK, Tesla considers the build year to BE the model year.

    7. Eventually, having a Comments field in the Results might be helpful. (E.g. "Battery replaced at 10k miles", or "Range charge daily".)

    8. I charge half the time on 240v/70a, and half the time on 110v/12a. My final charge level is consistently higher on the 110v, by several miles per charge. (I had it show 310 ideal miles once, and I've heard of people with numbers as high as 315.) Eventually perhaps there's a way to integrate this extra info?

    Great work, fun to see all the statistics starting to pile up!

    -Ben
     
  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,660
    Location:
    Minnesota
    This is awesome, thank you Tom.
    From the data posted to the board, it looks like charge percentage will be variable when 4.5 rolls out. Not sure what this will do to 'standard' and 'range' charges. I am sure 'range' will simply be 100%, not sure what 'standard' will be.
     
  11. gregincal

    gregincal Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,138
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Unfortunately, because of the current vampire loss that's not really true. You have to check the value soon after the charge finishes, because after a few hours it will have dropped. Since my charge always finishes about 3am I don't really know what it is currently. At some point I'd like to check, but I won't be able to fill out the survey until I get the chance.
     
  12. derekt75

    derekt75 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    I can't say that I know. The car charges 1:00am - 3:30am. By the time I get to the car at 7:45am, the vampire has been sucking for 4 hours. For people like me, anyone know of an easy way to contribute to the survey?
    Can I assume the vampire sucks 1 mile ever four hours in a 70°F garage, and just add in a mile?

    I suppose I could change the charging schedule one night. I'm not too keen on charging after 7:00am due to the TOU rate doubling at 7:00, but one half hour of charging at a higher rate isn't going to kill me.
     
  13. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    Can you time your charging so it would finish right before 7AM? You'd still give useful information even with an hour of the vampire drain.
     
  14. wraithnot

    wraithnot Model S VIN #5785

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Messages:
    475
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Entries 19 and 22 seem a bit odd. I sure hope efusco's 85 kWh car really charged to 242 and 272 instead of the reported 142 and 172! And I think Michael39 may have reported 217 and 237 ideal miles instead of rated miles for his 60 kWh. Anyway, it will be really interesting to follow the results of this survey and see how things progress. The LEAF survey showed a pretty clear correlation between battery degradation and living in Arizona. Hopefully the thermal management system in the Model S will keep that from happening to MS owners in AZ.
     
  15. tomsax

    tomsax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2008
    Messages:
    867
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    A few updates:

    There was a bug in the survey that messed up saving the value for whether you have a single or dual on-board charger. Everyone got marked as having a dual charger. If you have a single charger, you can either fix it with the update form, or let me know and I'll fix it.

    On the vehicles page, I removed the battery and charger swap columns. I'll keep an eye on them and see if they get more interesting. In their place, I added a Pack kWh column. If you click on that column, the vehicles are sorted by pack size and then odometer.

    I also added a column on the vehicles page for wh/mi. Doing that made it clear that some people have entered their Wh/mi in the spot that asks for kWh. The form now asks for both, you can fill in either (or both). For the number to appear on the vehicles page, you must enter trip miles (or km) and either kWh or Wh/mi (or Wh/km). I'll go through and fix the entries where it's clear that a Wh/mi number got entered as kWh.

    I made a few other tweaks to the survey text.

    I've contacted Michael39 and efusco about their reported rated range. Michael39's is fixed, and thanks to Michael39 for pointing out the error with the single/dual charger question.

    I'm aware of the charge mode change in version 4.5. Is there a screenshot of what that setting looks like? It would help for re-writing the survey question.

    Can I assume that the current "standard mode" is the same as 92% in the 4.5 scheme?

    Regarding the issues with getting a good reading at the end of the charge. I would like to get the unplugged number. I'm also OK if the number is a bit low from vampire load. I'd rather have a slight underestimate than an inflated number. I would prefer that owners report the number they can conveniently read rather than wait to make a big effort to get a perfectly timed reading. We can collect better numbers as the firmware improves.

    I know folks have figured out how to get data from the Model S web API. Are there any tools coming out of that work that would allow an owner to log SOC numbers to get the number at the end of the charge? Although I suppose that's messed up by the 4 rated mile bounce when plugging/unplugging...
     
  16. derekt75

    derekt75 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Done.
    Looks like I'm near the low end at 236.

    and I'm at the high end in usage at 397Wh/mi.
    I guess Doug_G's is high from heating his car when only on the freeway 30% of the time. Lyon spends even less time on the freeway, but probably doesn't use as much heat in Oregon.
    Here are my thoughts on my high usage:
    1) headwinds both going to work and returning from work. about 5 mph in the morning and about 15 mph in the evening.
    2) There's about 500 feet of climbing each 15 mile commute.
    3) 77 mph on the freeway isn't slow.
    4) I'm not afraid to use either pedal.
     
  17. tomsax

    tomsax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2008
    Messages:
    867
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    I'm amazed at the response so far! We hit 50 vehicles yesterday evening, just a little over 24 hours after the survey was released.

    I just added support for the software-limited 40 kWh version of the Model S.

    I also changed the wording on the question about Supercharger capability to reflect that the hardware is there in every Model S, it just has to be enabled on the non-85 kWh models.

    I also changed the wording of the onboard charger question to reflect Tesla's Single/Twin terminology.

    Thanks to everyone who has helped refine the survey.
     
  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,660
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I don't know for sure. But the images at Google+

    from the thread at Waiting for 4.5 firmware [now with release notes] - Page 17 post #163 seems to indicate a change.
     
  19. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,853
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Yes, my winter usage is extremely high due to extreme cold and mostly short trips - lots of pack heating and cabin heating. Once the warm weather came my usage dropped quite dramatically.
     
  20. tomsax

    tomsax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2008
    Messages:
    867
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    Thanks, that's very helpful.

    Once 4.5 is released, I'll rework those questions to ask for the 100% rated range and also as for the typical daily charge percent and rated range.

    When I do that, I'll convert all of the current standard mode charge levels to 92% charges unless there's a better charge level to use.
     

Share This Page