Tesla Model X Cancellation

[stopcrazypp]

vandacca: One of the reasons why I think this thread is not fully representative is because the OPs letter to Tesla - the one that actually explained the entire episode from start to finish - was deleted by moderators (it was a PDF attachment). That is why readers now won't be able to quite grasp the entirety of it, hence my summary above.

I think you are remembering things wrong. The letter he wrote to Jerome is still available:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...llation/page12?p=955093&viewfull=1#post955093

And note that we can't take his account of what happened as 100% true.

It was the letter from Tesla's lawyer that was deleted (unclear if it was by moderator or OP, I though it was OP).

And a very important point you missed in your summary:
He picked up his car on 1/6/2015. He found out it didn't have the seats and on the 1/7/2015 he had his lawyer speak with Tesla. Is it any surprise that Tesla responded in kind?
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...llation/page19?p=956908&viewfull=1#post956908

 

[Paul Carter]

Thread is out of sync due to some posts being moved. This should resolve after a few posts (or this post).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think you are remembering things wrong. The letter he wrote to Jerome is still available:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...llation/page12?p=955093&viewfull=1#post955093

It was the letter from Tesla's lawyer that was deleted (unclear if it was by moderator or OP, I though it was OP).

You are right, that letter was the PDF removed. In any case, not the entire story is available anymore. The case was made a few posts back that re-going through it is pointless because it is all still there. It isn't.

He picked up his car on 1/6/2015. He found out it didn't have the seats and on the 1/7/2015 he had his lawyer speak with Tesla. Is it any surprise that Tesla responded in kind?
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...llation/page19?p=956908&viewfull=1#post956908

That is not quite how the OP told on TMC (of course all we have is what is told on TMC):

The OP said he was rushed by Tesla to accept the P85D prior to seeing it, prior to pick-up, in 2014. He accommodated Tesla's request, which quite reasonably we can expect was done to meet a quota. We know from others Tesla has rushed such things, right? So doesn't sound unreasonable. He signed in late 2014 without seeing the car. This is what made it hard later.

OP noticed the wrong seats on Jan 6th on pick-up (he was not told about them by Tesla, he noticed them himself), tried to refuse delivery on pick-up due to the seats and Tesla stalled because the car had already been accepted. True, he tells us he turned the case over to his lawyer the next day. Perhaps not so unreasonable if he felt Tesla tried to blind-side him with the pre-approval and not talking the seats? Also, he had underneath him the sorry episode with P85+ in which he felt being sold a car on wrong information (we have merely his story of the sales experience of course).

The case became harder because delivery had already been accepted in 2014 without seeing the car. However, it was done blindly to accommodate Tesla, according to the OP.

Now, some claim OP did the early signing for tax reasons (we don't have the letter anymore to see everything), but of course he denied such reasoning. Which is more likely? Tesla's quota or OPs taxes. I guess both are possible.

And it is possible Tesla's higher-ups would never know if a sales person would push a quota on the floor. It is not unheard of. Misunderstandings within organizations happen all the time.

The full story as told by OP:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76284&d=1427657171

I agree we have one side of the argument, however I think it is important to at least re-tell it completely. I find it hard to pass firm judgement over either side with this information.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You are right, that letter was the PDF removed. In any case, not the entire story is available anymore. The case was made a few posts back that re-going through it is pointless because it is all still there. It isn't.

The letter removed is only a short one that informed the OP that Tesla was cancelling all business dealings with him. That it was removed doesn't really change the context as the long letter I linked was what had the long summary. I assumed that lawyer letter was removed by the OP, because people brought up that he may be violating an NDA agreement by posting that (even if redacted), and it was promptly removed after that.

OP noticed the wrong seats on Jan 6th on pick-up (he was not told about them by Tesla, he noticed them himself), tried to refuse delivery on pick-up due to the seats and Tesla stalled because the car had already been accepted. True, he tells us he turned the case over to his lawyer the next day. Perhaps not so unreasonable if he felt Tesla tried to blind-side him with the pre-approval and not talking the seats? Also, he had underneath him the sorry episode with P85+ in which he felt being sold a car on wrong information (we have merely his story of the sales experience of course).

Sure, perhaps you can argue he was justified in calling a lawyer. But by doing so after only one day (while the Regional Manager said he would get back to him), he killed off all the options of Tesla resolving this in a nicer and prompt manner. His DS will no longer be able to talk with him, the managers won't either, only Tesla's lawyers would be able to do so. This not only delays any response, but everything becomes rigid and legally framed. He should have expected that when he decided to go with a lawyer.

Now, some claim OP did the early signing for tax reasons (we don't have the letter anymore to see everything), but of course he denied such reasoning. Which is more likely? Tesla's quota or OPs taxes. I guess both are possible.

Actually we do have the letter to see everything. The letter I linked says that it was Tesla's lawyer that said the OP requested early signing for tax reasons and that the OP denies that.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The problem with the lawyer's tax reason claim is, the lawyer wasn't present. It does not sound unlikely at all the full extent of OPs and sales persons exchange would get lost on the way to higher-ups. A sales person pushing a quota does not sound unlikely either.

 

[Red Sage]

Hmmm... I've probably said this before, but just in case the point was missed...

All a Customer has to do is utter the magic words, "I'll never buy from you again!" They will get no argument from me. I'll see to their needs in the most expedient manner. Make sure they get all I said they would. Enter a complete record of all that was said. Close their account and bar them from buying from us ever again.

Some might ask, "Aren't you going to try to keep my business?" No. I have been honest, straightforward, direct, and to the point with you. I trust that you have been the same. So, I will take you at your word, and make the extra step to ensure you never buy from us again. Goodbye.

"Man, that's all you had to say!" -- Samuel L. Jackson as Jules, 'Pulp Fiction' (2004)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Hmmm... I've probably said this before, but just in case the point was missed...

All a Customer has to do is utter the magic words, "I'll never buy from you again!" They will get no argument from me. I'll see to their needs in the most expedient manner. Make sure they get all I said they would. Enter a complete record of all that was said. Close their account and bar them from buying from us ever again.

Some might ask, "Aren't you going to try to keep my business?" No. I have been honest, straightforward, direct, and to the point with you. I trust that you have been the same. So, I will take you at your word, and make the extra step to ensure you never buy from us again. Goodbye.

"Man, that's all you had to say!" -- Samuel L. Jackson as Jules, 'Pulp Fiction' (2004)

Then again, if that comment "I'll never buy from you again!" comes after unreasonable behavior and/or serious mistakes by the seller, maybe the seller would be better off (morally too) fixing things - the relationship included - rather than using it as an exit.

Not saying it necessarily applies here, we lack data for that, but there are some cases where customer's reaction might well be warranted, yet fixable, and a little more humility on the seller's part would be the right path to pursue.

 

[Krugerrand]

The fastest way to get the dog to drop the bone is to stop asking him to give it up. Takes all the fun out of the game.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The fastest way to get the dog to drop the bone is to stop asking him to give it up. Takes all the fun out of the game.

Indeed. I see lots of dogs with a bone on this thread.

 

[Red Sage]

Then again, if that comment "I'll never buy from you again!" comes after unreasonable behavior and/or serious mistakes by the seller, maybe the seller would be better off (morally too) fixing things - the relationship included - rather than using it as an exit.

Not saying it necessarily applies here, we lack data for that, but there are some cases where customer's reaction might well be warranted, yet fixable, and a little more humility on the seller's part would be the right path to pursue.

Perhaps. Except, it has been my experience in around 17 years of dealing with potentially irate Customers in various fields that only the most irrational, unreasonable, irresponsible, unprepared, illogical, and unprofessional of Customers ever utter The Magic Words. They do so even after you have offered them everything within reason, and a few things that are beyond reason.

I don't worry about people like that ruining my reputation. I figure everyone who knows them knows who they are and what they are all about. So they know full well that a company they complain about is likely among the best they could possibly patronize.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Perhaps. Except, it has been my experience in around 17 years of dealing with potentially irate Customers in various fields that only the most irrational, unreasonable, irresponsible, unprepared, illogical, and unprofessional of Customers ever utter The Magic Words. They do so even after you have offered them everything within reason, and a few things that are beyond reason.

I don't worry about people like that ruining my reputation. I figure everyone who knows them knows who they are and what they are all about. So they know full well that a company they complain about is likely among the best they could possibly patronize.

I won't question your experience and agree those words certainly can suggest a certain type of customer (though, if they even played any significant part in OPs story). I have sometimes had a better experience with some people when a rant is confronted with a very positive counter-offer, but YMMV. And certainly there are unreasonable customers too. But also unreasonable sellers... We're all human.

However it is one thing if one is in control of the customer experience. In Tesla's case, the story came to the desk of higher-ups who have a limited view of what may or may not have taken place on the floor over the course of two separate purchase experiences (the P85+ purchase experience and the P85D early acceptance/delivery experience). What seems unreasonable may be quite different to a person who was there and wasn't.

Even though I wouldn't put it past the OP to be unreasonable, I also wouldn't put it past a relatively large company like Tesla unintentionally making a decision like this without full knowledge (it is hard to get all the facts) - and thus deciding on wrong facts. Was OP as unreasonable as Tesla's higher-ups decided he was? At least a shadow of doubt remains in my mind of that.

 

[MassModel3]

Perhaps. Except, it has been my experience in around 17 years of dealing with potentially irate Customers in various fields that only the most irrational, unreasonable, irresponsible, unprepared, illogical, and unprofessional of Customers ever utter The Magic Words. They do so even after you have offered them everything within reason, and a few things that are beyond reason.

I don't worry about people like that ruining my reputation. I figure everyone who knows them knows who they are and what they are all about. So they know full well that a company they complain about is likely among the best they could possibly patronize.

The danger in that philosophy is in the media -- those who live to grasp onto that one in a million opportunity to show how horrible a given business can be. There are a few (even trolls in these forums) who grasp onto the most obscure bits of FUD and negativity only to write lengthy articles that the public might believe due to simple ignorance of the facts. You're right, you can only do so much when trying to please a customer, but in the end some people refuse to settle or be placated by anything other than complete submission. People become defensive and hostile and begin to feel that settling for anything less than everything is unacceptable.

Personally, I think that's much of what happened here. Once the gauntlet was thrown down, the OP had too much skin in the game to give up, and Tesla was certainly never going to admit defeat. Sometimes things just become ugly and there's no going back unless and until someone is willing to settle. Unfortunately, it may be the lawyers and courts that decide where to settle, and that's truly unfortunate because I think this started out as a situation that could have ultimately been worked out amiably.

 

[AlMc]

Perhaps. Except, it has been my experience in around 17 years of dealing with potentially irate Customers in various fields that only the most irrational, unreasonable, irresponsible, unprepared, illogical, and unprofessional of Customers ever utter The Magic Words. They do so even after you have offered them everything within reason, and a few things that are beyond reason.

I don't worry about people like that ruining my reputation. I figure everyone who knows them knows who they are and what they are all about. So they know full well that a company they complain about is likely among the best they could possibly patronize.

Totally agree. i have had a service business for 30 years. I am sure I have been at fault many times in a relationship that has gone bad but as my business has grown rather large and most of my staff has been with me 20+ years I feel I must be doing something right. Sometimes it is better just to 'fire the client' and let the chips fall where they may. The customer is not always right.

As to the Op/this thread: While there is direct evidence about some of the exchange (letters) we will never truly know exactly what happened and we will each interpret the data we have through our own frame of reference.

 

[Merrill]

Totally agree. i have had a service business for 30 years. I am sure I have been at fault many times in a relationship that has gone bad but as my business has grown rather large and most of my staff has been with me 20+ years I feel I must be doing something right. Sometimes it is better just to 'fire the client' and let the chips fall where they may. The customer is not always right.

As to the Op/this thread: While there is direct evidence about some of the exchange (letters) we will never truly know exactly what happened and we will each interpret the data we have through our own frame of reference.

Yes I agree that the customer is not always right. You can do everything correctly and still have a small percentage of your customers that are never happy. You must separate the customers that do have a valid complaint with those who are looking for compensation no matter what you have done, good or bad. Sometimes we had to divorce the customers that were never happy no matter what you did. What I use to do with these customer to weed them out was sit them down and explain that even though they have been regular customers over the years they never seem to be happy. I listen to there complaint and then with some of those customers said that even though they have been regular customers they have never been happy and always complained that maybe they need to find somewhere else to go. Problaby half of them said they they were actually happy with our service and became some of our best customers and the other half never came back.

 

[Red Sage]

Look it... Someone has to really work hard too get 'fired' as a Customer.

One guy called and said that if he were in driving range of our office, he'd come down and blast the place with an Uzi. I didn't hang up. I found out what the problem was and fixed it for him. He was perfectly happy with the solution I provided. I gave him the exact same level of professional courtesy I offer anyone who calls or walks in the door. And when the fault is ours, I admit it, and apologize.

I did the same for a lady who thought for sure there must have been credit card fraud. It turned out the order had been placed by her husband for shipment to his place of business. I suggested she should ask him about it and noted it may have been a present for a co-worker.

But another time, during the Christmas rush, someone called and challenged my professionalism. Things were very busy. It turned out the guy on the line was not the credit card holder, it was his Mom, he didn't even live at the delivery address. So, really, he had no right to be inquiring about her account anyways. Then he let slip that he worked there... Turned out he was a seasonal temporary employee and had hoped to get another, less experienced person on the line, so that he could bully them into sending out extra merchandise for free. What he didn't realize was that we were so busy that even the most senior personnel, including myself, were on the lines. He was found out, and fired as a result.

One Customer complained, for at least the third time I knew of, that we had sent them 'the wrong thing'. They didn't have the order number, the part number, a description of what they got instead, not even their account number. Nothing but their company name, and their own Purchase Order number. Turned out the order had been placed and delivered around three months before. I asked why they hadn't contacted us about the problem upon receipt. They said they don't open the packages until it is time for installation, they just put them to stock. Once I finally was able to speak to someone who could describe what they had, it was exactly what they had ordered. So, there was no fault on the part of my company whatsoever. It was an item that could be ordered as left or right handed, they chose the incorrect item for the application at hand. Still, I offered to waive the freight cost on a new order, waive the restock fee for the Return of the original, but noted they must send it back at their own expense. They were incensed, and demanded that not only should we pick up the original item, but that we should send the new one at no charge for merchandise or freight via a next day carrier -- three months after the original order was delivered correctly and on time as ordered. Upon further investigation, I learned this Customer had made the exact same mistake thirteen times before and no one had ever called them on their [BORSHT]. The problem was that their own Purchasing Agent never bothered to confirm the description of the items requested by his Shop, even though it was well documented that they had been told the difference between them multiple times. Lazy!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Red Sage's reactions seem perfectly reasonable to me.

Now, coming back to the stories of OP and Tesla as told on TMC:

The OP's troubles, as told by him, began with the P85+. As he told it, he was visiting a Tesla store with interest purely in a future AWD Tesla. According to him, a sales person convinced him that no AWD Tesla was forthcoming and so managed to get him into ordering the P85+. Of course the P85D appeared right around the time of his delivery. OP, according to him, tried to talk Tesla into concessions on an upgrade due to this - according to him - misinformation. OP eventually ordered a P85D and took a financial hit.

The second episode, as told by OP, came when - according to him - Tesla pushed the delivery acceptance of the P85D to the last days of Q4/2014, even though the car would not be available for checking until a week later. OP says this was requested by the Tesla sales person (presumably to meet a quota) and he complied. Then upon delivery a week later (in early 2015), OP is not told about the wrong seats installed in the car, notices them, Tesla delivery people are baffled about the situation, can offer no solid info.

OP tried - as told by him - to walk away because the car is not as ordered, but can't easily because of the pre-acceptance - things are now difficult because all the paperwork is already done. The issue is now a problem for both him and Tesla.

Things escalate, Tesla eventually accepts the non-acceptance but cuts ties with OP in the process. This is of course OPs version. Tesla's higher-ups in a letter, I believe, claimed the OP asked the early acceptance for tax reasons, which OP denied on TMC. It may be a case of the sales person's word against the OPs word, both of whom would be biased of course.

Now, on the Tesla side, it is easy for me to believe Tesla's higher-ups viewed the situation, in their eyes, completely fairly. I do not believe or expect any malice from them. But they have not probably not been fully privy to what has been told to the customer by those lower level people. They may have a different perception of the story than the customer, because they weren't there and even if they have the sales/delivery representatives versions, those may not be fully representative recollections anyway.

Thus what is left to doubt, in my view, is if OP was twice pushed by over-eager Tesla sales people - first one who should have known an AWD model was likely soon and second to meet a Q4/2014 quota to the detriment of the customer's ability to check their vehicle for order compliance - is how unreasonable his reactions indeed were. To him, it may have looked quite different than to a Tesla higher-up viewing customer records and relying on second-hand information.

 

[AlMc]

We will each interpret the given data (not complete) through our own frame of reference.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

We will each interpret the given data (not complete) through our own frame of reference.

Agreed.

 

[hill]

I'd like to share some unpleasant experience I have encountered with Tesla Motors.

After I have purchased 2 Model S vehicles (P85+ & P85D) from Tesla and having a 2 year old Model X reservation (low 3000 reservation #), Tesla Motors decided to CANCEL my Model X reservation without asking me.

The response I have received from Tesla was that because I have complained about an issue I had with my 2nd Model S P85D, they decided, I quote "...it's best to part ways."

Do you think this is fair?

Is Tesla Motors discriminating me? . . . . . snip . . . . .

discrimination only applies if/when you fall into a protected class ... race ... gender ... age ... etc. But money / business transactions not necessarily so. That's why restaurants will kick people out, legally, all the time. Because they can. They have a right to refuse service. The service you are being refused is buying a car. My wife has had this happen on a couple occasions. I'd never tell her, 'well yea ... what do you expect if you make them feel like you're grinding them down'. But I like to keep the peace

.

 

[MassModel3]

I did the same for a lady who thought for sure there must have been credit card fraud. It turned out the order had been placed by her husband for shipment to his place of business. I suggested she should ask him about it and noted it may have been a present for a co-worker.

Well then I certainly hope you're not in the lingerie business!