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Tesla Motors current and future battery degradation warranty...

Discussion in 'Tesla Motors' started by AEdennis, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. AEdennis

    AEdennis Active Member

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    #1 AEdennis, Sep 11, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2014
    Copying a post that I did to reply to Kevin Sharpe's battery degradation thread and to fork out warranty issues on this thread rather than encumber Kevin's particular case. (as was suggested by Bonnie.).

    In order to be more accurate in representation of what I believe the user community should be asking of Tesla and to expound on concepts that I wrote on a post in my blog.

    Clarification for each iteration of the battery helps purchasers understand their responsibilities better. Tesla's Model S Infinite Warranty made great headlines, however it was somewhat misleading with regard to degradation and it's exclusion with regard to the Model S.

    [Begin a somewhat reiteration of the post from Kevin Sharpe's thread.]

    Guys. I think it doesn't really matter to most of us the specifics of Kevin's car or case. What should matter is that Tesla should specify with regard to the Model S and future batteries, Model X, Model 3, AND the purported 400 mile battery an actual expected degradation.

    Furthermore, I would like it if they would provide some warranty based upon that guideline for replacement under warranty AND a price list if the customer wishes to get a pack that is "newer" or refurbished to a higher capacity than their own aged/degraded battery pack.

    The Battery Swap demonstration over a year ago took some of these thoughts into consideration over a year ago.

    Though I bought into the hype of the Infinite Mile battery warranty for my S85, I am now questioning the disingenuous nature of that marketing and it's specific exclusions. However, as an owner, if they choose not to do something about it, I'm just stuck until my car's range is "unusable". Which in my case becomes the range of a BMW i3 BEV (i.e. A very long time). [{Added after I thought about it and moved to here} However, such a range and the distance between Superchargers will render one of the reasons that I purchased a Model S somewhat moot.]

    Sadly, the topic for me remains as a request for Tesla to clarify and enhance the future battery warranty AND, if possible, the Roadster Warranty for e different classes (those that are original owners who may still be under a warranty and those of us who are under the CPO warranty, as well as those that are no longer warranted).
     
  2. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    As a clarification to new readers, Tesla’s current battery warranty specifically denies covering any range degeneration;

    “The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and
    use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT
    covered under this Battery Limited Warranty.”

    Source http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/model_s_quick_guide_-_na_rev_d_for_web.pdf
    Page 34

    In the long run they are forced to give exact limit to normal degeneration, if they want to sell Gen 3 to mass market. Mass market won’t buy it, if Tesla does not tell them, what degradation entitles warranty replacement. I’m positive Tesla will eventually do this, because it is the only way to sell Gen 3 to mass market. Class action jurists would have a ball, if Tesla would try to tell customers “this is normal degradation” without defining what is normal and what is not

    Limit can be adjusted so, that only few percent will be entitled to warranty replacement. Even with that kind of limit, it is reassuring to buyers, because they know, that if battery capacity drops below certain threshold in certain mileage, they get new pack.
     
  3. spaceballs

    spaceballs Member

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    #3 spaceballs, Sep 12, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
    I believe all EV manufactures should have a simple battery warranty chart like this.

    *Numbers are made up.
    Year(s) Miles








    10k 20k 30k 40k 50k 60k 70k 90k 100k
    1 95% 90% 85% 80% 75% 70% 65% 60% 55%
    2 92% 87% 82% 77% 72% 67% 62% 57% 52%
    3 89% 84% 79% 74% 69% 64% 59% 54% 49%
    4 86% 81% 76% 71% 66% 61% 56% 51% 46%
    5 83% 78% 73% 68% 63% 58% 53% 48% 43%
    6 80% 75% 70% 65% 60% 55% 50% 45% 40%
    7 77% 72% 67% 62% 57% 52% 47% 42% 37%
    8 74% 69% 64% 59% 54% 49% 44% 39% 34%
    9 71% 66% 61% 56% 51% 46% 41% 36% 31%
    Any battery number that the customer matches the year and mileage and if their battery % is below that, then their battery will be replaced under warranty.
     
  4. ch_model_s

    ch_model_s Member

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    #4 ch_model_s, Sep 12, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
    ok one more time. tesla cant give a warranty like Nissan, or BMW does with the current setting of the model s.

    This manufacturers can only give such warranties because their vehicles have all the same initial position in every country and for every customer.
    for example:
    1. You cant choose the charge level in a BMW I3. BMW set a fixed level and they calculated the battery life exactly with this SOC level. 100% is more likely 80-90% of the available capacity to improve the battery live. Tesla must change this also to an fixed SOC level or they say you can charge x many times over 90% in a year.
    2. A german Model S which is always driven on the autobahn at top speed sees the limiter all the time. So this battery gets much more stressed. Google for cycle life test for 18650 cells with different discharge rates and you see a big difference.
    BMW and Nissan solve this problem with a much lower top speed. If a I3 is driven at 75mph in the USA or at 93 mph in Germany the difference in battery life is not that big.
    So Tesla has to lower the top speed or give a german Model S a crappy warranty.
     
  5. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    So you believe it is better for consumers that tesla does not give any warranty regarding battery degradation?

    Concerning autobahn driving, Tesla sells cars in Germany. German consumer has right to expect, that car can be used in autobahn speeds without harm to car. If that is not the case, Tesla should tell this.
     
  6. ch_model_s

    ch_model_s Member

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    nope. i just give you some points why its hard for tesla to give such a battery warranty. I would be much easier for the customer when there is only one charge setting (90%) and a lower top speed but a warranty that covers battery degradation. Tesla just cant go back and change all this thats why i dont think this gone happen with the model s. maybe it changes with the model 3.
     
  7. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    That depends of what happens, when enough people with Model S think they are entitled to battery replacement and Tesla tells they are not.
    Of course with any type of warranty there will always be customers who feel that they are entitled to something that they according to warranty terms are not.
    But whether Tesla will retroactively give Model S degradation warranty depends of the PR situation.
    It is not long ago that Tesla decided to give extended drive train warranty when they noticed, that drive train replacement worries were starting to harm Tesla’s reputation
     
  8. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    Just to emphasis the importance of battery warranty concerns we have two "consumer advocacy" programmes in the UK who will cover the story in the next few days.

    The first is on BBC Radio 4 at 12:15 today and has an audience of 3.5 million people...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04gcdt8
     
  9. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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    Extensive discussion in roadster section of TMC. To put into perspective after years of use less than 20% reduction with an owner that has a long commute and now believes his car is unusable. There were even suggestion in that thread he should drive it especially hard to further degrade battery to strengthen his case for free replacement. I don't know any way to determine how a battery has been "treated" during the life of a car (extensive range charging, running down, extensive performance use, track use all known to hurt the first generation battery packs in roadster). He has been making his demands through an extensive campaign via TMC, twitter and now press. Many here have used the term Brodered, I think we now have the term Sharped to define this tactic. I am not speaking about the man, just his tactic.
     
  10. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    We are trying to discuss important issues about Tesla's battery degradation warranty (see OP). We will get nowhere if your response is to start a personal hate campaign.
     
  11. CatB

    CatB Member

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    I thought there was a battery replacement plan, whereby you could sign up to buy replacement battery in 10 years or $12K, if you waited 11 years, price would go down to $11K, etc. That seemed fair to me - if I wear the battery out slower, I can save money by holding off on replacement. Was that just a rumor? or was it documented anywhere? Won't help Kevin with his Roadster, although the new 400mi battery seems like it should work for him even better.
     
  12. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    This thread isn't going to be very helpful if you just start rehashing your campaign here.
     
  13. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    Right, I expect something like that. They can low-ball the numbers, just like Nissan.

    Part of the problem is that every release has a new battery and if something goes "Honda Civic Hybrid" they don't want to end up footing a huge bill.

    For Roadster owners, I expect Tesla to replace dead packs with new packs software limited to partial distance (with the option of purchase), and then to use good sheets from dead packs to replace bad sheets, until eventually they're just replacing packs.
     
  14. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    #14 Kevin Sharpe, Sep 12, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
    Is it possible to have a meaningful discussion without including input from consumer organisations? I'm not discussing my specific issues in this thread but both BBC and The Sunday Times are reviewing the impact on consumers and IMO that's important.
     
  15. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    Yes but we all know that you're highlighting your own case again; part of your campaign was highlighting that in the other thread, hence the reference to 3.5m people etc.

    P.S. BBC radio isn't a "consumer organization".
     
  16. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    This raises an important point. News bias is part of the reason why people are so ignorant of real trends. (I recommend the recent TED talk Hans and Ola Rosling: How not to be ignorant about the world | Talk Video | TED.com). This allows people to use the media to manipulate opinion to get things to go their way. This is why wealthy industrialists and governments love to control the media.

    The ignorance and fear then leads to negative risk assessment and businesses have to try to build trust or add an insurance charge to the price of their products. I think low-balling a-la Nissan, and trying to build trust on evaluation of everything else in between is probably the best solution.
     
  17. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    "You and Yours" is a highly respected Consumer Affairs Programme... I'm not going to argue the point but burying your head in the sand is hardly the way to encourage Tesla to produce a battery degradation warranty IMO.
     
  18. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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    The tactic is fair game. All the items I mentioned in the post are noted in the tesla roadster manual to reduce battery capacity yet when brought up you only say its a personal hate campaign. Not true, I don't know you and would appreciate you pointing to any posts that indicate that I "hate you". If we are talking about battery warrantee, refer to roadster section where you referred to Nissan warrantee 30% limit. Why would you get your free battery under that by being 19% down. On your long daily commute were you range charging routinely which the manual warns against or over deplete as range was a reach for you? We're you doing performance mode frequently, was the car charged to performance mode routinely? Talking about battery warrantee would be appropriate questions to ask.
     
  19. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    Please, lets keep Kevin's case out of this thread. There is own thread for that.
     
  20. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    No need to get personal. The reason I didn't participate in the other thread (and I'm giving up on this one right now) is because you insist on beating down anyone who doesn't agree with you.
     

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