Tesla Motors current and future battery degradation warranty...

[Matias]

“The Tesla Model S drive unit warranty has been increased to match that of the battery pack. That means the 85 kWh Model S, our most popular model by far, now has an 8 year, infinite mile warranty on both the battery pack and drive unit.”


http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/infinite-mile-warranty

Some might call this misleading advertising, and I believe it will back fire on the long run.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Some might call this misleading advertising, and I believe it will back fire on the long run.

This has already been the subject of a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK and I have been told that other complaints are pending. IMO Tesla do not want to become a brand that people question in this way.

I have not been tracking the Model S closely but was genuinely surprised to discover the "Infinite Mile Warranty" excludes degradation. I was also disappointed to read the comments in the OP about the CPO Roadster warranty. Both of these suggest to me that Tesla are unwilling to stand behind their products.

Some background on the previous ASA complaint is on the Speak EV forum and I will try to provide updates if/when the other complaints are made public;

Teslas misleading battery warranty | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

 

[J1mbo]

The response from the ASA is clear and fair.

IMO, complaining to the ASA about the theoretical possibility of this situation happening with a Model S is pointless unless taken in the wider context of this thread, i.e. let's cost Tesla some money and inconvenience for not jumping when they were told to jump.

 

[David_Cary]

Give me a break with "misleading" advertising. I think Tesla should provide a degradation warranty but I certainly don't think their current advertising is misleading.

Given that we have a 100k mile car, it seems they could come up with a good number. I think 80% at 100,000 miles and 8 years is fairly safe. Even if they have some warranty replacements, it would be far in the future and not a huge expense. The old batteries could be repurposed so their actual charge might be less than $5k and probably will be less than 2% of cars. Somehow to me 80% sounds a lot better than 70%. The press release can say they expect 90% and will warranty 80%. That sounds like a reasonable plan and most people will think 90% as an average is pretty fantastic

 

[wts13]

Seems to me the biggest reason Tesla can't/won't do this is because they would be essentially admitting that the car has a major flaw. This would scare away unfamiliar buyers.

Most of us are familiar with the technology and understand that this is an inherent factor, but many don't. While I hope Tesla will improve their policy, I suspect they may not.

 

[rlang59]

This has already been the subject of a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK and I have been told that other complaints are pending. IMO Tesla do not want to become a brand that people question in this way.

I have not been tracking the Model S closely but was genuinely surprised to discover the "Infinite Mile Warranty" excludes degradation. I was also disappointed to read the comments in the OP about the CPO Roadster warranty. Both of these suggest to me that Tesla are unwilling to stand behind their products.

Some background on the previous ASA complaint is on the Speak EV forum and I will try to provide updates if/when the other complaints are made public;

Teslas misleading battery warranty | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

It seems like the ASA's response is pretty clear and there is no false advertising. Also isn't Teo the same guy that is worried about cyclists getting decapitated by the falcon wing doors on the Model X?

 

[JRP3]

ASA shot that down. Teo seems to be a first order FUD stirrer.

 

[dsm363]

Glad he has found a new home. He doesn't let up wether it's parking rules in Washington State or advertising practices in England. For someone who doesn't own a Tesla and has no plans he has an odd focus.

 

[dsm363]

It seems like the ASA's response is pretty clear and there is no false advertising. Also isn't Teo the same guy that is worried about cyclists getting decapitated by the falcon wing doors on the Model X?

Same guy (username at least).

 

[dsm363]

This has already been the subject of a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK and I have been told that other complaints are pending. IMO Tesla do not want to become a brand that people question in this way.

I have not been tracking the Model S closely but was genuinely surprised to discover the "Infinite Mile Warranty" excludes degradation. I was also disappointed to read the comments in the OP about the CPO Roadster warranty. Both of these suggest to me that Tesla are unwilling to stand behind their products.

Some background on the previous ASA complaint is on the Speak EV forum and I will try to provide updates if/when the other complaints are made public;

Teslas misleading battery warranty | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

You were surprised? So a taxi driver buys a model S and drives 500 miles a day. You expect Tesla to give him a new pack every 200,000 miles or so because it goes below a number like 80%? I would hope you know better than this as someone who is in charge of a company debar installs EVSEs. Did you do any research on batteries or EVs before starting this company or buying an EV?

I think it makes sense for Tesla to wait on any kind of degradation warranty until the car has been out for a number of years and they have actual historical data.

 

[scaesare]

This has already been the subject of a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK and I have been told that other complaints are pending. IMO Tesla do not want to become a brand that people question in this way.

I have not been tracking the Model S closely but was genuinely surprised to discover the "Infinite Mile Warranty" excludes degradation. I was also disappointed to read the comments in the OP about the CPO Roadster warranty. Both of these suggest to me that Tesla are unwilling to stand behind their products.

Some background on the previous ASA complaint is on the Speak EV forum and I will try to provide updates if/when the other complaints are made public;

Teslas misleading battery warranty | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

This just goes to show: No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[ecarfan]

I have not been tracking the Model S closely but was genuinely surprised to discover the "Infinite Mile Warranty" excludes degradation.

I would be genuinely surprised if the warranty included degradation.

As has been repeatedly pointed out by multiple members on this forum, it is well known that lithium ion batteries degrade over time. Anyone who owns a cell phone is aware of that. Predicting the amount of degradation for a specific vehicle is very difficult to do accurately since each vehicle will have a unique pattern of charging and driving.

It is clear that Tesla makes the most sophisticated EV BMS available for the Model S. It is also clear that the Roadster BMS is not as effective since the Roadster was essentially a limited production proof-of-concept vehicle. It's good, but not as good as the S and the Roadster cells are likely not as durable as the S cells.

Maybe in a few years when Tesla has data on thousands of over 100K mile Model S vehicles they will be able to offer a warranty against a specific amount of battery degradation, but I don't expect that from them now, and I would never have expected it in the Roadster warranty since Tesla did not have enough long term data on a large number of Roadster batteries, and likely still doesn't because a large percentage of Roadster are driven very little. I have been following the Roadsters for sale for a year and the vast majority of them have less than 20K miles on them. Of course age is also a major influence in battery degradation but so is usage and number of charge cycles.

 

[dsm363]

Exactly. Anyone who has owned an iPhone or any mobile phone really knows that after a year or two if doesn't seem to hold as much charge as it used to. Apparently a few people didn't notice that though.

 

[Matias]

Nissan, BMW, GM and KIA are able to offer battery degradation warranty.

Why they can offer degradation warranty, but Tesla can't?

 

[mknox]

Seems to me the biggest reason Tesla can't/won't do this is because they would be essentially admitting that the car has a major flaw.

Well, I think that it the crux of the issue. It is not actually a "flaw" but rather just the way these batteries work. The problem is the average new car buyer might not be aware of that and consider it a "flaw". I think that Tesla must have some sort of a line between what "normal" and "abnormal" degradation is, and it should be pretty simple (and harmless for Tesla) to include "abnormal" degradation in their battery warranty. It would serve to help educate consumers as well as allay fears. I would point out that I'm not being critical of Tesla here, nor am I particularly worried about it, but I just think it's an opportunity to make a problem go away.

 

[AEdennis]

Exactly. Anyone who has owned an iPhone or any mobile phone really knows that after a year or two if doesn't seem to hold as much charge as it used to. Apparently a few people didn't notice that though.

My original point (when I forked this thread from the other one) is to have Tesla integrate a guideline that states that we can expect the batteries to last to X% in Y miles or Z years. It would be great if Tesla included a price to replace the battery. A lot of phones, the iPhones included have a cost to replace the battery. In some cases this is easy as there is a market to remove and replace the batteries in others it's a little more difficult (as is the case of an iPhone) as people have to jimmy open the phone (and void the warranty) and swap it out there.

It's not unreasonable to ask for this as I intend on keeping both the Roadster and Model S for many years. I've replaced transmissions and that sort of thing on ICE cars I've owned in the past, and though pricey, I made the determination to do it then because of what I expected to drive PAST that repair. I'm just asking for Tesla to provide the same sort of thing for the batteries of the Model S and Roadster (for my own selfish reasons) and the future vehicles for their own adoption.

 

[Chickenlittle]

This has already been the subject of a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK and I have been told that other complaints are pending. IMO Tesla do not want to become a brand that people question in this way.

I have not been tracking the Model S closely but was genuinely surprised to discover the "Infinite Mile Warranty" excludes degradation. I was also disappointed to read the comments in the OP about the CPO Roadster warranty. Both of these suggest to me that Tesla are unwilling to stand behind their products.

Some background on the previous ASA complaint is on the Speak EV forum and I will try to provide updates if/when the other complaints are made public;

Teslas misleading battery warranty | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

Not every car is right choice for everyone. You seem so impressed with others that I think you should fet a leaf and move on. Btw with 50,000 cars on the road where are all the people with decreasing range in model s. There are cars with significantly more than 100k miles

 

[arg]

Nissan, BMW, GM and KIA are able to offer battery degradation warranty.

Why they can offer degradation warranty, but Tesla can't?

Partly because they are only dabbling with EVs and can afford to take a risk of having a lot of warranty claims.

It would be reasonable to offer a warranty that covers degratation significantly worse than typical. Unfortunately, nobody knows exactly what typical degradation will be, nor what the variance is likely to be.

We expect it (for Model S) to be quite good, but Tesla can't risk setting a hard number that is close to what they expect since there's always a chance that typical degradation will accelerate in later years or high mileages or some other factor that could affect a large number of users. So if Tesla did publish a hard figure, it would have to be very conservative - they can't afford to have 100% warranty claims because they've got the limit wrong by a percentage point or two. And if they do publish a very conservative figure, then on the one hand it hurts their marketing because people will treat the conservative warranty number as the expected number, and on the other hand it doesn't actually help the people who deserve help. For example, if the actual degradation at some milestone of use is typically 10% with a variation of only a few percentage points, then we'd probably agree that someone with 20% deserves help from the warranty - but Tesla would be unlikely to set the limit any better than 30% even if they actually forecast this scenario accurately.

As it is, we can hope that Tesla will treat cases of unusual degradation fairly under 'goodwill' - but they aren't obliged to with the current warranty, and it's tricky to devise a forward-looking warranty that they could be reasonably asked to give while still being useful. They could reasonably give some more clarity on their goodwill policy, and perhaps some retrospective rules (they could now set a hard number for 2-year old cars if they wanted to).

 

[omarsultan]

The UK mainstream press are waking up to this issue. In this weekends Sunday Times they discussed battery 'fade' alongside a Model S review (full article available online).

I have also seen a complaint made to the Advertising Standards Authority regarding the "unlimited miles battery warranty". I find it extraordinary that Tesla are receiving such complaints in the UK and this is not something you want a premium brand associated with IMO.

You must be quite pleased with yourself.

 

[AEdennis]

Partly because they are only dabbling with EVs and can afford to take a risk of having a lot of warranty claims.

With over 100,000 Leafs sold, I wouldn't say that Nissan is "dabbling" necessarily. The fact that they sell the cars outside of California in quite a few markets around the world (I actually just saw a bunch at Hong Kong Airport) makes them a little bit more than "dabblers" in EVs.

Additionally, as previously mentioned Nissan also provides its customers with guidance as to battery degradation and what is covered (granted it's 37% (I think that's what I saw)). Now, it may have taken a lawsuit or a threat of a lawsuit to get there, but it IS the right thing. It was also mentioned that BMW i matches the Leaf degradation warranty. My question still holds, why doesn't Tesla? If they match the Nissan one, that's EVEN WORSE than the blog post in 2006 that people said discussed the Roadster at 30% in 50,000 miles [or or and] 5 year expectations.