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Tesla making HUGE mistake with Superchargers
- Thread starter Vicj
- Start date
Hank42
Legacy Supporter
I have unlimited free supercharging on my 10yo MS. This whole CSS things sounds so foreign to me. What I'm gleaning from this thread is is that I might not be able to charge anymore for free because my charge port is obsolete?
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Hank42
Legacy Supporter
Yeah, sorry guys, my S is one of those slow pokesIndeed, thanks for the correction. But they’re also essentially dead.
And like I said, lots of 85kwh model S charge at about 50kw these days too.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Adapter + Tesla app. Seems pretty simple to me.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
I hear the concept, but kinda weird as you start to look at the details. Where are the adapters kept? How are they not stolen? How does a non-tesla owner sign up and have a credit card active on the tesla app? How does tesla know what car is plugged into which stall? All of this is done auto-magically right now because when you plug in your tesla, the charger knows who it is...
Yes, there are work arounds for all of the above. But it sounds really clumsy.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
In the car of the individual that bought it I presume.
Usually by locking the car.
The same way an owner does, I imagine. This is how it works in Europe where they’re already doing this.
The owner of the non-Tesla will probably have to tell them via the app. Every stall at every site is numbered.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
You're missing the details.
If every public person coming to a Tesla station has to bring their own adapter, that adapter is gonna have to be hanging out the side of their car with the Tesla plug stuck in it. Now there's all kinds of fun with people either ripping it out and stealing it.
If you use the app to identify which stall you're using (instead of just plugging into a tesla which self-identifies) there's now all kinds of hijinks allowed with trying to block other cars from plugging in, stealing power etc.
Yes again all these corner cases can be mostly addressed. But it fights the basic clean design of the current supercharger station. Cars self-identify. There are no adapters - the plug goes directly to the car and self-locks. No level of indirection between which-car-is-plugged-in and who's app is talking to the charger is possible.
To make public access work well, you pretty much need to make dedicated public stalls with a CCS plug and purpose-built UI that talks directly to the customer on-site about payment, cost, time-allowed, etc.
And again yes, you can make it work with an app and everyone-brings-an-adapter, but it's gonna cause trouble, I assure you.
CCS communication has plug-to-charge, so if you don't like an app-based solution, then the requirement can be that the car is registered to the app/tesla, and the car can talk to the station and identify itself, similar to how a Tesla does, just with different protocols. Tesla's already teaching cars to speak CCS with new models and supposed planned retrofits, retrofitting the same ability into stalls wouldn't seem that hard.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Eh? Not sure how your Tesla works, but the adapters I currently use with mine will happily lock into the charge port like any other cable (for example, the J1772 adapter).
Eh? Plug in car first. Finish transaction in the app. Car starts charging. This is an invented problem.
Just as it will continue to be for Tesla owners in perpetuity.
I wonder how they’ve managed to already pull this off in Europe without any of that nonsense?
Thank you for the assurance. I remain unconvinced and think most of the problems you’ve envisioned are completely manufactured.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
So let's see if I understand the best case of how this will supposedly go.
The public will all carry CCS to Tesla adapters. These adapters will all manage to lock both to the car, and to the Tesla cable. The public will install some form of Tesla app, and certify their particular vehicle on it. We then hope that every carmaker and every adapter-maker get the car-to-CCS-to-Tesla communication right so that this lots-of-points-of-failure chain all holds together and people can just "plug in" like Tesla's do.
I'm still skeptical, but... if you say so.
The public will all carry CCS to Tesla adapters. These adapters will all manage to lock both to the car, and to the Tesla cable. The public will install some form of Tesla app, and certify their particular vehicle on it. We then hope that every carmaker and every adapter-maker get the car-to-CCS-to-Tesla communication right so that this lots-of-points-of-failure chain all holds together and people can just "plug in" like Tesla's do.
I'm still skeptical, but... if you say so.
Well, the Tesla-to-CCS communications would be on the station side, so it's just about car-to-CCS that manufacturers would need to get right...which is a challenge, and something Electrify America and others have mentioned working very actively with car manufacturers to standardize and test during pre-production and early vehicle rollouts for new models. The app side sounds a lot like how, for instance, the existing Electrify America app works (register a VIN). As for adapters...either they're common enough that they're basically just a $250 chunk of plastic and wires such that having them around isn't an issue, or Tesla starts switching sites to a CCS1-equipped version of their existing dual-cord European Supercharger pedestals such that an adapter isn't necessary. Those installs were also done as retrofits, so they clearly have the technical capability to do that.
One can hardly say that they didn't pay to support the network though. Latecomers should be thanking them for making it all possible by buying these strange cars. Remember, there was no Supercharger network when some of the S85's were bought and it was very sparse when most S85's were purchased.Indeed, thanks for the correction. But they’re also essentially dead.
And like I said, lots of 85kwh model S charge at about 50kw these days too.
It happens all the time with J-1772 adapters going both ways and there don't seem to be any problems. If it becomes a huge problem simple padlock devices can be made to work.
Other then the adapter they are already doing it in Europe and it doesn't seem to be a problem. You plug in, open the app, select the stall you are in and charging starts. In the US people will just have to buy and carry an adapter...
It is just like using any other public charging system...
In Europe they use CCS.
In the USA, I'd expect them to add a cable, as they did at some stalls in Europe when they transitioned to CCS.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Just to be clear, I don't believe there are reports of Tesla wanting to open up stations to non teslas in the USA. Rather, in Texas, subsidies are offered to build new stations, as long as the station includes a standard connector on each charger, at least one of the two standards.
In Europe the laws are making them open more and they use ccs2 there on Tesla cars.
In Texas, Tesla will use ccs2 and chademo cables, probably not adapters.
As a clever trick, the law lets them get the subsidy if they put chademo on every station, and ccs on only one. The main car that uses chademo is the leaf, and it is not common for road trips. As such, you might rarely see non teslas at such a station, except at the one ccs unit. In fact it would comply with the law to make the one ccs unit just 50kw, and expensive, but this starts pushing the spirit of the law a lot.
In Europe the laws are making them open more and they use ccs2 there on Tesla cars.
In Texas, Tesla will use ccs2 and chademo cables, probably not adapters.
As a clever trick, the law lets them get the subsidy if they put chademo on every station, and ccs on only one. The main car that uses chademo is the leaf, and it is not common for road trips. As such, you might rarely see non teslas at such a station, except at the one ccs unit. In fact it would comply with the law to make the one ccs unit just 50kw, and expensive, but this starts pushing the spirit of the law a lot.
Well, this part maybe not. In the quarterly conference call where Musk talked about this topic, he was saying Tesla would probably be including adapters at their stations, rather than just making owners of other brands of cars buy and carry their own adapters.
Yep, but....so what? It is cumbersome as ****, but Tesla was never promising to try to design some new system that is super polished and user-friendly and slick, and easy to use for owners of other cars. That's not the point, and it probably won't be. They are just coming up with something that will supposedly have some kind of functionality.
No. Tesla said so.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
I've now seen references to stations with CCS connectors (required for Texas grants) as well as adapters that other drivers can buy and adapters at the stations. I suppose they could put adapters at the stations where it would be more useful, and sell adapters for those who want to travel to stations that don't have, or don't yet have, the adapter. One could imagine a "smart" adapter that works on all stations and pretends to be a virtual Tesla for billing which would be somewhat expensive, or a passive adapter where all the smarts are in the charger (no big whoop as Tesla already knows how to support CCS in a charger) and the billing is in the Tesla app. The latter would be cheaper but would require the station has some sort of upgrade to support it perhaps -- CCS uses different signalling than Tesla uses. It would be nice for the drivers if they supported plug-and-charge but few CCS cars have that at present.
Higher prices for the CCS customers are almost a certainty.
strider
Active Member
We've already discussed this in the Electrify America thread. I have no inside information, but I am making an educated guess based on what I know of Tesla having been a customer for 12 years and reading a ton.
Tesla will move their cars and SCs to CCS over the next few years. The SCs will start with mostly TPC and some CCS, then slowly migrate to all CCS. After the transition (remember this will take YEARS so don't freak out), TPC cars will be able to use a CCS-TPC adapter that is going on sale soon.
Read this:
www.tesla.com
Tesla literally said they are going to open up the SC network. And why not open the SC network? It gives Tesla a new revenue stream (since they are deploying the stations anyway, additional usage is pure profit) while fulfilling their mission of helping transition more people to EVs.
Moving the cars to CCS simplifies the ownership experience by minimizing the number of adapters that are required plus the aforementioned access to subsidies (and simplification on the charging side by only needing 1 cable). Let's be honest, Tesla is VERY good at playing the govt subsidy game.
Tesla will move their cars and SCs to CCS over the next few years. The SCs will start with mostly TPC and some CCS, then slowly migrate to all CCS. After the transition (remember this will take YEARS so don't freak out), TPC cars will be able to use a CCS-TPC adapter that is going on sale soon.
Read this:
Non-Tesla Supercharger Pilot | Tesla Support
Launched in November 2021, our Non-Tesla Supercharger pilot will continue to expand to new sites and countries in support of our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.
Tesla literally said they are going to open up the SC network. And why not open the SC network? It gives Tesla a new revenue stream (since they are deploying the stations anyway, additional usage is pure profit) while fulfilling their mission of helping transition more people to EVs.
Moving the cars to CCS simplifies the ownership experience by minimizing the number of adapters that are required plus the aforementioned access to subsidies (and simplification on the charging side by only needing 1 cable). Let's be honest, Tesla is VERY good at playing the govt subsidy game.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
Tesla will move everything to CCS with the speed and eagerness that Apple has shown in switching iPhones from lightning to usbc
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