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Tesla needs to improve rear seat safety especially for children

Discussion in 'Model S' started by veryannoyingname, Nov 23, 2015.

  1. veryannoyingname

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    Tesla needs to improve rear seat safety especially for children in my opinion. I have based my opinion of the following facts from reputed road safety reports from Folksam.

    Tesla is a "recommended Safe car" on this insurer car safety list (they have been involved in vehicle safety investigations for 35 years) Krocksäkerhet - Hur säkra är bilmodellerna? - Folksam


    but it doesn't make it to the "list of safe family cars" due to lack of safety features for children in rear seats like lack of rear seat belt pretensioners (present on other cars from other manufacturers) and load limiters and height adjustable seat belts etc Volvo, Mercedes, Skoda och Toyota toppar Folksams lista över säkraste familjebilarna | Folksam Press

    Safest car was a Volvo as per their list http://www.folksam.se/testergodarad/varatester/hursakerarbilen/1.142926

    See the full list of safe family cars here and Tesla didn't even make that list due to lack of some safety features for rear seats and children! http://www.folksam.se/testergodarad/varatester/hursakerarbilen/1.142925

    And doesn't make it to the good safety choice for price categories, although i don't know if they included vehicles above Kroner 300,000 price. I don't know the price of Tesla in Kroner. http://www.folksam.se/testergodarad/varatester/hursakerarbilen/1.143008

    Nor does Tesla make it to the safest category in each segment of vehicle http://www.folksam.se/testergodarad/varatester/hursakerarbilen/1.143008

    Please use Google chrome to auto translate from Swedish to English for the links above.

    But on EURONCAP Tesla testing for small children rear facing child seat was good http://www.euroncap.com/photo/dummies/dummie-child-front-152x152.png but had no information on bigger children sitting in car seats forward facing. Think the Swedish website tests for bigger children sitting facing forward. Hence the discrepancy between the websites. The Swedish website also takes into account EURONCAP testing results in its points system.

    I hope Tesla improved safety for rear seat passenger and children and does not omit safety features for rear seats like rear seat belt pretensioners and height adjustable seat belts and child seat safety features like ISOFIX which were absent in the EU VERSION ( unlike present on USA version) as per published EUROCON crash safety reports on Tesla of you read the detailed reports. Euro NCAP | Car Details

    Same applies for the lack of Knee airbags in EU and UK models (unlike USA models) if you see the detailed EUROCON crash safety testing reports you will note that driver shin knee area got yellow http://euroncap.blob.core.windows.net/media/14383/frontalimpactdriverimage.png
    and driver chest got red in side pole test http://euroncap.blob.core.windows.net/media/14388/sideimpactpoleimage.png instead
    of green when you select the relevant icons on the detailed reports available on euroncap website.

    Hope these safety features are implemented in Tesla cars.

    Hope this post gets posted instead of getting moderated because of links as I don't have many posts on this forum yet.
     
  2. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    Well written.
    I don't necessarily agree with you, but it is logically written with good references.
    Rather than posting this to a web forum of Tesla owners, I would suggest sending it to Tesla.

    We here have no control over what Tesla does.
     
  3. thegruf

    thegruf Member

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    I wasnt aware that some safety feature were omitted on UK//EU models compared to US models.

    Is this confirmed anyone?
     
  4. veryannoyingname

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    #4 veryannoyingname, Nov 23, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
    I did try suggesting a few things several months ago on the official forum regarding the Knee air bags (lacking in EU & UK VERSIONS) and Bluetooth quality aptx, ISOFIX lacking in EU AND UK etc etc but TESLA moderator deleted thread within as a day. So I don't post there any more as instead of taking it as constructive feedback after test drive from prospective customer they just delete stuff that isn't glowing for Tesla out will make thread owners only to so prospective customers seeing any issues regarding vehicles.

    Did enquire about Bluetooth profiles etc from Tesla Amsterdam phone support who had called me themselves but they didn't seem to have a clue and just stone walled saying ask at test drive. Test drive person didn't have a clue and was gaping his mouth open when I was testing the power output of the USB ports etc which by the way in the one I drove was just between 450 to 700 milliamps. Think I haven't got any lower on any port I have tested to date.

    I had queried these issues several months ago by email when they wrote to me for feedback after test drive and no one has bothered answering any of those queries yet. I can get the Bluetooth profiles of most cars that I am interested in but still haven't managed to find the Bluetooth profiles available on Tesla cars till date. It's a waste of time asking about it at test drive or the official website or on official forum or by phone with their Amsterdam support people or by email as I have tried all options over the last few months. I like my music streaming on Deezer via mobile connection Bluetooth to my cars. With Bluetooth 4.0 and APTX the quality is great. At test drive compared to my two present Toyota cars with stock stereo the quality of audio on the premium audio streaming Bluetooth on Tesla want great fit the same songs I am used to listening. The optimisation for each seat via on screen controls are great but the actual sound quality is lacking even on the premium audio on Tesla compared to my stock Toyota cars. Just my subjective opinion listening to music in the respective cars. When I compare the same music to cheap add on DSP for car available on eBay for under £14 that allows music to be tuned to any case seat position the difference is even more obvious. Try it yourself buying this one from eBay instead for much cheaper and see difference in sound processing using JBL-MS-2-Portable-Sound-Optimiser I am not even talking high quality DSP just the cheapest one I could get for car.

    Anyway hopefully the safety improvements and 360 camera via plus dashcam front and back recording options will hopefully be available by the time I purchase the model X in the future. Will wait for reliability issues to be sorted in early models before jumping in with my money as don't want to be stung by any reliability issues that may be present on early models.

    The moscow TESLA club on YouTube had uploaded video showing blind spot differences between USA and EU models, which shows a huge difference in favour of EU models regarding safety. Check out that video on YouTube. It's in Russian but English subtitles.

    Hopefully they won't skimp on safety features like Knee air bags and ISOFIX in the UK and EU models like they seem to be doing presently as per EUROCON data compared to the USA models.
     
  5. Vitold

    Vitold Member

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    OP is wrong since ISOFIX is available in rear seats on all European models (US models have similar LATCH system). It's true that European Tesla is missing knee airbag however it does have pelvis airbag that many other cars lack.

    What I think would be nice to have is child jump seat build into back of 2nd row seat.
     
  6. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Member

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    I've read that knee airbags are required in USA to get top safety rating (regardless of whether they are necessary for safety, or not) and the supposition was that with no engine to restrain and keep out of the passenger shell that they were not needed so not included in EU models.

    The EU safety test site shows "adequate" (one step down from the best "good" rating) to drivers lower legs. Might be that USA test had similar issue (even though knee airbags would have been present)?

    I did find it interesting to see how other manufactures compare, just on a pure "what's the score number" basis, and found that the other makes that we have (run of the mill vehicles, and smaller / with ICE engines up front etc. etc.) all scored better then Tesla S. But not by much ...

    I also note that VW etc. have "Euro NCAP Advanced Rewards" described (of which it seems to me that Tesla has at least these: Blind Spot Monitoring, Lane Departure Warning / Lane Keeping Support, Autonomous Emergency Braking), but none are indicated on Tesla Model-S. Might just be that Tesla didn't fill in that bit in the forms, or spend $$$lots on Lobbying ...

    The comments also seem to say? that Tesla, subsequent to the test, fixed a calibration error with the airbags but EuroNCAP says "Although the calculated injury parameters were not hazardous, protection of the passenger head was penalised and rated as adequate" so appears that Tesla score is downgraded absent a repeat test?

    If Tesla have fixed an issue which downgraded their score, but EuroNCAP has not amended its figures, then I have no idea what weight to assign to their published numbers ...
     
  7. veryannoyingname

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    #7 veryannoyingname, Nov 23, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
    Please check official EURONCAP testing data yourself and click on the various clickable options on the Eurocon link for child seat restrain system which will prove that tesla car tested by EURONCAP didn't have ISOFIX restraint system. This was confirmed by several people on official forum who owned the car but TESLA moderator deleted thread several months ago immediately after several owners confirmed not having it in their EU models. See EURONCAP report .

    I checked EURONCAP Tesla model s result again and it clearly states no ISOFIX which was confirmed by other owners on the Tesla official forum but that was deleted by mod. See Euro NCAP | Car Details
    and in that click on child occupant tab at the top. If you see what pops up it clearly states that ISOFIX isn't present. Or wasn't present in the model tested by EURONCAP. I also have given feedback to Tesla when they emailed me to give feedback. I raised all the same points mentioned above and they haven't bothered to contact and correct me if I am wrong on the above points. I raised some of these issues on the test drive as well and enquired about Bluetooth Specs via phone and email and test drive but no one at Tesla is willing to comment on the Bluetooth specs.

    If you see my previous tweets to Teslamotors about the decrease in airbags and ISOFIX etc they haven't corrected any errors I might have made in my comments.

    With regard to the adult safety on the EURONCAP report if you click on adult icon then it will show yellow for driver leg instead of green for leg which means adequate instead of good. The side pole test had red for driver which means poor rating. Several other cars have got much higher EURONCAP rating. On EURONCAP tested cars that for 10 points more in safety than Tesla. Infact the didn't come first in any of the last few years of testing even though on the Tesla forums it is frequently bandied about as the "safest car" while it is far from that as per EURONCAP testing over several years where it is not among the highest rated cars.

    Car reliability by brand as per truedelta Car Reliability by Brand, 2012 to 2014 | TrueDelta

    Number of repair trips new Tesla Model vs old Tesla Model S Reliability

    Side view mirror blind spot USA vs EU model ТеÑла зеркала ТеÑÑ‚ Ñлепых зон - Tesla Model S Mirrors Blind Spots American vs European - YouTube

    Please note that only Tesla Model S single motor version has been tested for crash testing by the looks of it and dual motor versions havent been tested as far as i can tell after going through the EURONCAP and NHTSA testing websites and youtube channels. Dual motor versions have less FRUNK space near drivers knee and UK and EU models of the Tesla Model S have no knee airbags unlike the USA models of the same car. Why would a manufacturer remove safety features for UK and EU models is beyond me. Same applies for ISOFIX child seat restraint system or lack there of in EU and UK models. Again the row 3 rear facing child seats dont seem to have any airbags and dont seem to be the models used in crash testing. So there is no safety crash testing report available from NHTSA or EUROCON for models equipped with rear facing 3rd row seats in Tesla Model S.

    See Tesla crash testing report*Euro NCAP | Car Details

    See EURO NCAP best in class 2014 crash testing press release*Euro NCAP | 500 - Server Error

    See EURO NCAP best in class 2013 crash testing press release*Euro NCAP | Euro NCAP’s Best in Class Cars of 2013

    See EURO NCAP best in class 2012 crash testing press release*Euro NCAP | Euro NCAP’s Best in Class Cars of 2012

    There are several cars that got much higher crash testing results in 2014, 2013 and 2012 as is obvious from the EURO NCAP crash testing results for the mentioned years as shown in links given above.

    See some examples of other cars that got much higher results for crash testing. Just posting the links here as SOME of the examples below.
    Euro NCAP | Car Details which got 92 points a clear 10 points more than Tesla Model S in 2014.
    See*Euro NCAP | Car Details which again got 9 more points than Tesla Model S.
    See*Euro NCAP | Car Details which is a 2012 model gets 13 points more than Tesla Model S.

    Just posting some examples above to show that the claim that it is the safest car is without any basis. Yes I agree its a safe car but deletion of even safety features like lesser number of airbags in the UK and EU and no ISOFIX in UK and EU means it isnt the safest car and USA crash testing results have no meaning in the EU and UK as the safety airbag numbers are decreased in UK and EU models.

    But there seem to be other safety differences depending on which country you buy the Tesla Model S in. For example USA models of Tesla Model S dont seem to have rear fog lights
     
  8. veryannoyingname

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    Try buying rear seat console in the UK or EU... You can't buy or even fit it due to rear console needing ISOFIX mounting. Hence not available as accessory to buy on the UK or EU Tesla stores. Tesla UK rep didn't even know such an accessory was available in the USA until I showed it to him on my phone. Please note I am referring to rear seat centre console and not front centre console. I don't even know if the front centre console is even available in the UK. Please Note even third party front centre console from EVANNEX won't fit UK Tesla
     
  9. Vitold

    Vitold Member

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  10. hiroshiy

    hiroshiy Active Member

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    I can't speak of EU but Japanese model S is based on EU model and has ISOFIX on the second row seats.
     
  11. BertL

    BertL Active Member

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    Having different safety systems in different parts of the world is not unique to Tesla. My former US-delivered Lexus, BMW, and MBZ had varying safety systems, lighting and reflector differences, etc. from what was available as standard or as an option in other parts of the world. The odd (for us in the US) rear fog light, e.g. is I believe unique to Europe -- IIRC it was in fact physically molded into my former MBZ and BMW tail lights, but not enabled on my US-delivered vehicles for I don't know what reason.

    To make things even more difficult, we even have some State laws here in the US that vary, e.g. requiring headlights to always be on when your windshield washers are, is a law in California and a few other States, but not consistent across all 50 US States -- so what is an auto manufacturer to do about that? To me, all auto manufacturers have a challenging task to provide capabilities that comply with country and local laws they want to sell in with multiple safety organizations, standards and methods of measurement, while providing the best safety possible at a reasonable cost. While we could debate the points forever, which I won't because I'm not an engineer or lawyer that wants to dig into that level of detail for the sake of discussion, I suspect not all options like rear fog lights found in some countries can be installed everywhere else due to compliance or some regulatory reason beyond a specific mfgr, like Tesla's, control. It costs a company money to design, provide, and maintain slightly different designs, sometimes more than if their product were all the same -- hence why I believe mfgrs like Tesla, Lexus, BMW, MBZ and others must have their reasons why they tweak what they deliver around the world.

    ---

    Be all that as it may, OP, I must ask though, since you appear to really be into this safety detail ...which is great: Are you asking and keeping track of all this detail because you are a Tesla Owner, as a true potential future Tesla Owner, a concerned citizen, or perhaps just someone working to gather input and reaction from an enthusiast forum like TMC that can be used or quoted for some other media, legal, company or personal purpose? If the former, great -- I for one appreciate the POV. If the latter, well, not so much.

    I agree with a previous poster, it would be best for the OP to provide their comments directly to Tesla in the country they are concerned with. Forums provide a way to voice an opinion, are sometimes good for the soul, but do not represent any official POV if that is what someone is after.
     
  12. veryannoyingname

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    #12 veryannoyingname, Nov 23, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
    That's weird. One place it says ISOFIX is there and another place on same link it says isn't there.
    Screenshot_2015-11-23-15-37-51.png

    - - - Updated - - -
    @hiroshiy
    Thanks for that confirmation
     
  13. Vitold

    Vitold Member

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  14. veryannoyingname

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    Sorry if I came across like a troll or otherwise. I am interested in Tesla doing well. I am not an owner yet but will buy a Model X in a year or so once initial models sort out any early reliability issues. No I don't own a Tesla yet.

    Got interested in electric cars after buying a Toyota Hybrid for my wife and liked the electric elements of the driving experience and only then explored Tesla in the last year. I usually like gadgets and like Tesla hence why I maintain a Tesla playlist on my YouTube channel with the same username. Think it had about 400 tesla videos on it presently. All the Tesla articles I read and like I usually tweet about.

    Got interested in Tesla as leasing it from employer served very tax efficient irrespective of the UK Electric car grants. Hopefully in the next year or so I might be a Tesla owner or atleast lease it. In the UK Chaedmo chargers are present on most motorways fuel stations note and free charging presently. So should be OK even if super chargers aren't many. But only issue is service centres are few and far off. Hopefully will be one nearer by the time I buy as am long way away from London

    - - - Updated - - -

    @vitold

    OK thank you for that information. I wasn't aware of that.
     
  15. veryannoyingname

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    Please check all relevant YouTube videos for American Tesla which will show that airbag areas are clearly marked with the word airbag just like UK version. In the UK and EU version think there are 6 airbags but USA version has 8 airbags. Check the UK and USA Tesla websites and see the difference in airbags and also accessories available etc to see the differences. Check to see if even front centre console is available as accessory in the UK and same for rear seat console which isn't available in the UK.
     
  16. Caligula

    Caligula Member

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    In regards to the Russians and their blind spot video... none of these cars have a blindspot if you properly adjust the mirrors and use them in conjunction with the rear camera.

    See this guide for further information:
    Avoiding The Blind Spot | Car Talk
     
  17. Mike Strauss

    Mike Strauss Member

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    I read an article today that said the company is recalling 90,000 model Ss due to seatbelt problems. Tesla keeps having issues... first its guidance, now its recalls. analysts seem bullish though, guess there’s still reason to be optimistic https://www.tipranks.com/stocks/tsla
     
  18. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Member

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    I wouldn't ever expect Tesla (or any other manufacture for that matter) to make as Safe a car as Volvo. That's Volvo's schtick, thats what drives their marketing, and where they focus their R&D.

    That Folksam study is flawed to me. They require a bunch of stuff to get an excellent rating, that doesn't nessiarly impact saftey. I'm sure glad that my car doesn't have rear seat belt reminders, that must be hugely irritating as it would go off any time you put a bag on the back seat, or try to use a car seat with the LATCh instead of the seat belt. Height adjustable seatbelts are irrelevant due to the booster requirement in the US.
     
  19. Ugliest1

    Ugliest1 S85: "Sparky"

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    That's seatbelt problem, singular, as in, discovered in ONE CAR in Europe. As of Saturday morning I read they had looked at 3,000 cars in their inventory and did not find the same problem in any of them. The recall is an "overabundance of caution", and IMHO a great PR exercise about Tesla's total focus on safety. There's a thread on this but I can't find it. Stay tuned for more FUD as some headlines blow this up out of all proportion.
     
  20. veryannoyingname

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    Thanks for that link. I will try out the suggestions in that for eliminating blindspot. I am more used to the traditional way of arranging the mirrors.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Height adjustable seat belts are useful for shorter passengers and not just children in car seats and also useful for drivers. Rear seat belt pretensioners and seat belt load limiters are useful safety aids that get extra points in EU and Swedish safety testing. If Tesla thought it appropriate to have pretensioners for front passengers then why is it not equally important for rear seat passengers. Some other manufacturers have had it for 10y in rear seats!
     

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