Tesla needs to move to CCS in North America

[Saghost]

Tesla has gone through this exact process in Europe, Australia and New Zealand so there's no insurmountable problem that they haven't already solved. The only issue they might run into is the fact that in those other countries, they changed to CCS *before* the Model 3 came out. The majority of Tesla vehicles in each of those regions is already the new standard. Whereas if Tesla was going to do it in North America, they really should have done it for the Model 3 release. The longer they leave it, the harder it is to do.

In addition to the points MP3Mike makes above, the US CCS1 spec has more challenging requirements than CCS2. It's not just a different shaped plug on top.

J1772 locks to the car using a manually actuated lever on the charging handle (there's also a slot where the car can lock it.) The energy in transit on a CCS DCFC is enough that it can kill if disconnected even if the charger cuts power immediately, so a manual latch was an unacceptable safety risk.

As a result, all CCS1 plugs have an electromechanical actuator moving that latch, so the charger can lock the plug to the car regardless of user intent. (Under CCS2, like Type 2 EU plugs, the car locks the connector with a pin on the car side and the plug is just a plug.)

If Tesla made an adapter, it would have to somehow replicate this safety feature. Since there's no way for the charger to grab the car in the Tesla plug, the only way I can see is for the car to grab the adapter and lock it for the session, and then the plug to grab the adapter. That's possible, but complicated and annoying to implement with figuring out when and how to release the adapter - and unlike all of the existing Tesla adapters, it'd mean putting the adapter on the car first, then plugging in.

If they're going to retrofit cars with CCS plugs, they need a bunch more real estate than they have on the X/S, which means cutting new holes in the sheet metal.

 

[Chuq]

so they didn't have to do anything to continue using all of the existing Destination chargers, UMCs, and Wall Connectors

Ahh, you're exactly right, I've used this comparison before so not sure why I forgot about it now.

The things like stopping other cars from using them, changing supercharger cables, installing dual cable superchargers, or providing adaptors for old cars aren't issue.

Of course the discussion then focused on using a different port on the car, and that definitely does have the AC charging issue!

 

[chronoreverse]

As a result, all CCS1 plugs have an electromechanical actuator moving that latch, so the charger can lock the plug to the car regardless of user intent. (Under CCS2, like Type 2 EU plugs, the car locks the connector with a pin on the car side and the plug is just a plug.)

If Tesla made an adapter, it would have to somehow replicate this safety feature. Since there's no way for the charger to grab the car in the Tesla plug, the only way I can see is for the car to grab the adapter and lock it for the session, and then the plug to grab the adapter. That's possible, but complicated and annoying to implement with figuring out when and how to release the adapter - and unlike all of the existing Tesla adapters, it'd mean putting the adapter on the car first, then plugging in.

This isn't exactly an impossible engineering challenge. The CCS1 charger is responsible for locking its end and the Tesla connector to the car is responsible for locking its end (that is, the adapter<>tesla end works together to make sure the car is locking).

There's a person on Reddit who likes to say since the car can't lock CCS1 from its end (it's the charger's responsibility), a safe CCS1 adapter isn't possible but that's really bunk. Tesla just has to lock the Car<>Adapter interface like normal while the charger, like all CCS1 chargers, locks the Charger<>Adapter interface like normal.

The adapter isn't going to be just two wires from the CCS1 to Tesla side, it'll obviously have control electronics (and maybe even contactors) of its own. The adapter won't start until the Tesla side is fully locked and the CCS1 charger won't start until it's fully locked as well. You would want to plug in the Tesla side first but it'll still be safe if done the opposite direction.

 

[Saghost]

This isn't exactly an impossible engineering challenge. The CCS1 charger is responsible for locking its end and the Tesla connector to the car is responsible for locking its end (that is, the adapter<>tesla end works together to make sure the car is locking).

There's a person on Reddit who likes to say since the car can't lock CCS1 from its end (it's the charger's responsibility), a safe CCS1 adapter isn't possible but that's really bunk. Tesla just has to lock the Car<>Adapter interface like normal while the charger, like all CCS1 chargers, locks the Charger<>Adapter interface like normal.

The adapter isn't going to be just two wires from the CCS1 to Tesla side, it'll obviously have control electronics (and maybe even contactors) of its own. The adapter won't start until the Tesla side is fully locked and the CCS1 charger won't start until it's fully locked as well. You would want to plug in the Tesla side first but it'll still be safe if done the opposite direction.

Not impossible, no, but significantly more effort than the EU adapter was, and they can’t just adjust the plugs on the ends of that and use it.

 

[chronoreverse]

Not impossible, no, but significantly more effort than the EU adapter was, and they can’t just adjust the plugs on the ends of that and use it.

Absolutely. It'll at least be as complex as the Chademo adapter (almost certainly more). Still hope to see it sooner rather than later though

 

[cwerdna]

As a result, all CCS1 plugs have an electromechanical actuator moving that latch, so the charger can lock the plug to the car regardless of user intent. (Under CCS2, like Type 2 EU plugs, the car locks the connector with a pin on the car side and the plug is just a plug.).

You sure about the bolded part? Due to COVID-19 (not going to the office to L2 charge for free), I'm actually using SAE Combo (charging my Bolt) at least once a week thanks to free discounted charging from Home Page - DRIVEtheARC, including on Saturday.

From what I can tell, the SAE Combo handles from a latch point of view are just like J1772. There seems to be no motor moving the tang on the handle. It seems directly mechanically linked just like J1772 L1/L2. I can hear a microswitch clicking when pushing on the SAE Combo handle's button, just like J1772.

Every SAE Combo car does have some sort of locking mechanism for the SAE Combo plug on the car side (e.g. a PIN or other piece of metal that moves over like on the Bolt). That you can hear and see before charging starts. And, it sure seems to mechanically block the movement of the SAE Combo handle's tang when charging. I've run into this blockage on bad chargers that fail to start and I have to wait until the unlock happens.

Some other vehicles like the e-Golf and BMW i3 use a pin that sticks out which also locks J1772 (AC) handles to the car.

I've mostly used DC FCs made by BTC Power and ChargePoint. If you wish, I can take a video the next time of my observations while pushing on the handle's button and behavior w/its tang and posted to this thread... And, I can a take video of my Bolt's SAE Combo locking mechanism locking and/or unlocking.

 

[Saghost]

You sure about the bolded part? Due to COVID-19 (not going to the office to L2 charge for free), I'm actually using SAE Combo (charging my Bolt) at least once a week thanks to free discounted charging from Home Page - DRIVEtheARC, including on Saturday.

From what I can tell, the SAE Combo handles from a latch point of view are just like J1772. There seems to be no motor moving the tang on the handle. It seems directly mechanically linked just like J1772 L1/L2. I can hear a microswitch clicking when pushing on the SAE Combo handle's button, just like J1772.

Every SAE Combo car does have some sort of locking mechanism for the SAE Combo plug on the car side (e.g. a PIN or other piece of metal that moves over like on the Bolt). That you can hear and see before charging starts. And, it sure seems to mechanically block the movement of the SAE Combo handle's tang when charging. I've run into this blockage on bad chargers that fail to start and I have to wait until the unlock happens.

Some other vehicles like the e-Golf and BMW i3 use a pin that sticks out which also locks J1772 (AC) handles to the car.

I've mostly used DC FCs made by BTC Power and ChargePoint. If you wish, I can take a video the next time of my observations while pushing on the handle's button and behavior w/its tang and posted to this thread... And, I can a take video of my Bolt's SAE Combo locking mechanism locking and/or unlocking.

I suppose I should be careful making universal statements like that, because it's hard to be sure there isn't an exception somewhere.

I made that comment based on the logic I laid out here after vdiv had made a similar comment and led me to do research, and especially the content of the Mouser PDF.

On page 6, it describes CCS with "Safe charging: An electromechanical actuator locking mechanism prevents the vehicle connector from being withdrawn during the charging process or prior to completion of all necessary transactions such as payment. This guarantees a high level of functional safety."

The detailed CCS1 description on page 8 is a little less clear - "Locking and unlocking by means of a lever system with additional actuator locking mechanism at the inlet."

I've been assuming from the safety implications and the statements in the PDF that those are universal CCS1 traits, but I don't actually know that for a fact...

 

[chronoreverse]

[edit]you said the same thing[/edit]



Too bad we can't just read IEC 62196-3 which actually defines this since you need to pay for it. Looking at the CCS1 plug though, it's pretty stupid they didn't just build in the same hole in the CCS2 version on the DC pins for the bolt to lock. With that said, it's not impossible to simply engineer a lock on the latch.

 

[cwerdna]

I suppose I should be careful making universal statements like that, because it's hard to be sure there isn't an exception somewhere.

I made that comment based on the logic I laid out here after vdiv had made a similar comment and led me to do research, and especially the content of the Mouser PDF.

On page 6, it describes CCS with "Safe charging: An electromechanical actuator locking mechanism prevents the vehicle connector from being withdrawn during the charging process or prior to completion of all necessary transactions such as payment. This guarantees a high level of functional safety."

The detailed CCS1 description on page 8 is a little less clear - "Locking and unlocking by means of a lever system with additional actuator locking mechanism at the inlet."

I've been assuming from the safety implications and the statements in the PDF that those are universal CCS1 traits, but I don't actually know that for a fact...

I only glanced at the brochure but I've never personally seen any SAE Combo connectors in the style of Phoenix.

The ones usually used by EA look exactly like RADOX® HPC500 - HUBER+SUHNER (they don't have a logo printed on them) and were implicated in UPDATE: Electrify America Shuts Down All 150-350 kW Fast Chargers Over Safety Issue. I've not seen any of HPC CCS 1 EV Charging | ITT Cannon style myself.

IIRC, the ones I've been using are usually Rema (and might even have their logo on them): CCS 1 Connector – REMA-EV.

It might not be for a week or so until I need to DC FC again and can put up videos. There is a ChargePoint DC FC that I pass frequently. There are two EA sites that I sometimes go near but I have no desire of paying them to start a session to test (43 cents/kWh). I've used them under their old more reasonable pricing scheme.

Again, I have never ever noticed any sort electromechanical actuator (or motor) moving that latch on the plug side for SAE Combo. I probably have only used under two dozen distinct SAE Combo stations, so far.

 

[mblakele]

Disclaimer: not affiliated, not an endorsement.

CCS Adapter | SETEC POWER

CCS1 Adapter for Tesla
*Model: SET-S4-T1
*Use with US Standard Tesla, when you
only have CCS1 charger .
*Charging times vary based on the power and current.
*Voltage: 100-1000Vdc.

$660

Current 200A
Voltage 100-1000Vdc
Operating Temperature -30°C to +50°C
Storage Temperature -40°C to +85°C
Enclosure Rating IP54

*There is one CCS combo 1 charger, when the Tesla with US standard vehicle inlet come , then can not charge the Tesla . In this case , will need to our CCS adapter.
*Both two side with plug , one side connect with CCS combo 1 plug , the other side will connect with electric car vehicle inlet.

Notice:
1.The adapter get approval by CE , FCC .
2.The first stage will release 1000pcs
3.We will arrange delivery from the middle of December, and will arrange delivery in proper order base on the prepay.
4.Not including the local tax

​

 

[Saghost]

Disclaimer: not affiliated, not an endorsement.

CCS Adapter | SETEC POWER

CCS1 Adapter for Tesla
*Model: SET-S4-T1
*Use with US Standard Tesla, when you
only have CCS1 charger .
*Charging times vary based on the power and current.
*Voltage: 100-1000Vdc.

$660

Current 200A
Voltage 100-1000Vdc
Operating Temperature -30°C to +50°C
Storage Temperature -40°C to +85°C
Enclosure Rating IP54

*There is one CCS combo 1 charger, when the Tesla with US standard vehicle inlet come , then can not charge the Tesla . In this case , will need to our CCS adapter.
*Both two side with plug , one side connect with CCS combo 1 plug , the other side will connect with electric car vehicle inlet.

Notice:
1.The adapter get approval by CE , FCC .
2.The first stage will release 1000pcs
3.We will arrange delivery from the middle of December, and will arrange delivery in proper order base on the prepay.
4.Not including the local tax

​

Interesting. It sounds promising. I guess we'll see how it works out in a month or so.

 

[CyberGus]

 

[qingshan]

IMHO, CCS is the way forward for Tesla.

Now that Electrify America (EA) is rolling out CCS based chargers, this let's Tesla expand it's "Tesla Supercharging network" without the cost of new installations or buy building few dedicated Superchargers. Instead they can strike a deal to piggy back on the Electrify American network, while still maintaining their dedicated Superchargers features such as free charging for qualified owners.

To do this Tesla needs switch to manufacturing cars with CCS, as they are with the cars going to Europe.

Tesla is already install a dual CCS/Supercharger retrofit kit to their existing superchargers in Europe. So with both "regular" supercharger and EA CCS this would would let NA Tesla owners with CCS ports continue to use the existing Supercharger locations and the new "EA Superchargers". Also it would it incentives North American buyers to upgrade to new model Teslas that supported CCS rather then hold onto their older vehicles.

What do people think?

That would mean that we would compete for spots. The ability to use ccs would be nice, why I have a chademo adapter, but other ev's not be able to use the Tesla sc's is why our wait times at them isn't much greater.

 

[kilpatds]

Eh, the utilization of Electrify America chargers is soo low, I'm not sure that's a real issue. We have a Kona EV we do some longer drives in, and it's very rare there are any other electric vehicles anywhere in the same location. But it's rare to me to see a Tesla supercharger location without some other vehicles in it.

It may become a real issue, but I don't think it is one now.

 

[Pluto]

Teslas charging is the more appropriate and elegant solution. CCS should adopt Tesla's format!

I agree that I would prefer to keep the American Tesla plug. Based on the conversations here, it seems like anything similar to a European solution would be more complicated than it's worth business-wise. Instead, I think Tesla should just place a separate inlet/port for CCS1 on the other side of new US Tesla vehicles and call it a day.

Sure past owners like me wouldn't have access to charging at CCS stations, but we were never promised that in the first place and Tesla will always pursue building out their own charging network. Even Electrify America can't keep up with Tesla's supercharger build-out, so I suspect the Tesla supercharger network is still better than all other DC charging options in NA put together and will be for a long time. Another way to look at that is if you had access to all options when traveling, most of the time (if not always) you're likely to use Tesla's network at more than 50% of all charging stops.

 

[cwerdna]

Eh, the utilization of Electrify America chargers is soo low, I'm not sure that's a real issue. We have a Kona EV we do some longer drives in, and it's very rare there are any other electric vehicles anywhere in the same location. But it's rare to me to see a Tesla supercharger location without some other vehicles in it.

Ditto on both from my observations in my part of the SF Bay Area.

Whenever I'm at or pass by an EA location, I can't think of a time where I've actually seen another EV there using the DC FCs or J1772 EVSEs (if any). If any are in use, it's by me as I have a Bolt.

The only time I "kinda" saw an EA site being in use was the confused Model 3 driver I posted about at encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledge - Page 10 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. I highly doubt the driver had the CHAdeMO adapter and obviously couldn't use CCS. They were looking for Tesla urban style Superchargers which are within the same strip mall but on other side. The EA DC FCs are not visible from the Superchargers and vice versa.

 

[cwerdna]

You sure about the bolded part? Due to COVID-19 (not going to the office to L2 charge for free), I'm actually using SAE Combo (charging my Bolt) at least once a week thanks to free discounted charging from Home Page - DRIVEtheARC, including on Saturday.

From what I can tell, the SAE Combo handles from a latch point of view are just like J1772. There seems to be no motor moving the tang on the handle. It seems directly mechanically linked just like J1772 L1/L2. I can hear a microswitch clicking when pushing on the SAE Combo handle's button, just like J1772.

Every SAE Combo car does have some sort of locking mechanism for the SAE Combo plug on the car side (e.g. a PIN or other piece of metal that moves over like on the Bolt). That you can hear and see before charging starts. And, it sure seems to mechanically block the movement of the SAE Combo handle's tang when charging. I've run into this blockage on bad chargers that fail to start and I have to wait until the unlock happens.

Some other vehicles like the e-Golf and BMW i3 use a pin that sticks out which also locks J1772 (AC) handles to the car.

I've mostly used DC FCs made by BTC Power and ChargePoint. If you wish, I can take a video the next time of my observations while pushing on the handle's button and behavior w/its tang and posted to this thread... And, I can a take video of my Bolt's SAE Combo locking mechanism locking and/or unlocking.

Ok, for @Saghost:

- the charger was broken and so was the other one at that site, so I cut off the rest of the video since it had no useful content other than a failed charge attempt.

- shows my car locking the handle. To my surprise, there's enough movement to allow one to push the trigger on the handle which terminated the charge and released the handle. This is totally different than J1772 AC locking I've seen on BMWs, HyunKias, Volvos and VWs when AC charging and keeping the J1772 AC handle attached like a parasite once done. Normally, I stop DC FC sessions via the touchscreen of the DC FC itself or in the case of https://www.chargepoint.com/files/datasheets/ds-cpe100.pdf, you need to swipe the card you used to start it since those have no touchscreens.

- daytime view of charging lock, but session already started.

is one of the heavy HUBER+SUHNER cables and handles Electrify America uses.

 

[Saghost]

Ok, for @Saghost:

- the charger was broken and so was the other one at that site, so I cut off the rest of the video since it had no useful content other than a failed charge attempt.

- shows my car locking the handle. To my surprise, there's enough movement to allow one to push the trigger on the handle which terminated the charge and released the handle. This is totally different than J1772 AC locking I've seen on BMWs, HyunKias, Volvos and VWs when AC charging and keeping the J1772 AC handle attached like a parasite once done. Normally, I stop DC FC sessions via the touchscreen of the DC FC itself or in the case of https://www.chargepoint.com/files/datasheets/ds-cpe100.pdf, you need to swipe the card you used to start it since those have no touchscreens.

- daytime view of charging lock, but session already started.

is one of the heavy HUBER+SUHNER cables and handles Electrify America uses.

Interesting. So the car has an actuator that pushes down on the lever, not something pushing a pin through a slot like some J1772 units?

 

[cwerdna]

Interesting. So the car has an actuator that pushes down on the lever, not something pushing a pin through a slot like some J1772 units?

Correct and Bolt never locks a J1772 handle for AC charging to the car.

But yes, on some EVs/PHEVs that I've seen w/charging locks for J1772 handle locking (can't speak to DC FCing and for some, it's n/a), like e-Golfs and BMWs, they have a round pin/peg that sticks out and blocks the upward movement of the tang on J1772 AC handles (also preventing the micoswitch from being pressed). I've not DC FCed those to see if with an SAE Combo handle attached whether there's enough movement to allow the trigger/microswitch to be pressed to terminate the DC FC session.

'13+ Leaf (I have a '13) J1772 charging lock is totally different w/a white plastic/nylon piece that moves to lock the handle in place. Of course, that's n/a for DC FCing as that's via CHAdeMO.

 

[Pluto]

It looks like Tesla created a CCS1 to Tesla adapter for its Korean market: Tesla announces new CCS charging adapter but North America launch still unclear - Electrek