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Tesla offers 3 months of free FSD

run-the-joules

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Aug 13, 2017
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i disagree. The beta fsd is surely level 3 and should be wide released by April baring some sort of disaster.

I don't know how you can count something where you need to keep your hand on the wheel and pay attention to the road as level 3. Level 3 means the driver must be available to take over ON REQUEST, not preemptively stop the car from doing dumb crap.
 

qdeathstar

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May 17, 2019
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I don't know how you can count something where you need to keep your hand on the wheel and pay attention to the road as level 3. Level 3 means the driver must be available to take over ON REQUEST, not preemptively stop the car from doing dumb crap.
You are describing level 4... human intervention would still be common at level 3.
 

run-the-joules

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You are describing level 4... human intervention would still be common at level 3.

incorrect. Level 3 is where the user can go inattentive but is expected to be available to respond to requests from the system and take over.

notably, Waymo decided to skip level 3 because their conclusion was that humans aren't good enough at context switching to be able to do this safely.
 
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Lubestaff

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Sep 7, 2020
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You are describing level 4... human intervention would still be common at level 3.

The definition doesn't rely on how common interventions are. Level 3 pertains to autonomous systems that expect intervention upon request.

FSD Beta requires constant human supervision, not conditionally on it being explicitly asked of the user. And it also still demands intervention to correct frequent failures as they happen.
 

EVNow

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Sep 5, 2009
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i disagree. The beta fsd is surely level 3 and should be wide released by April baring some sort of disaster.
I doubt a wide release by April - assuming you mean General Availabiility - not available to everyone in Early Access.

I think because of youtube videos people are widely over estimating where Beta is at. I think it will be weeks before everyone in EAP gets the beta and then some quarters before it becomes GA. I just hope by '21 end it can be GA - and may be earlier we can get some elements of FSD.
 

qdeathstar

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May 17, 2019
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incorrect. Level 3 is where the user can go inattentive but is expected to be available to respond to requests from the system and take over.

notably, Waymo decided to skip level 3 because their conclusion was that humans aren't good enough at context switching to be able to do this safely.


Level 3: Environment detection

Able to detect the environment around them, level 3 vehicles contain the lowest-tier system that is classified as an automated driving system as opposed to a manual system. With this more advanced technology, level 3 vehicles can make informed decisions for themselves such as overtaking slower moving vehicles. However, unlike the higher rated autonomous vehicles, human override is required when the machine is unable to execute the task at hand or the system fails.
 

Lubestaff

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Sep 7, 2020
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Level 3: Environment detection

Able to detect the environment around them, level 3 vehicles contain the lowest-tier system that is classified as an automated driving system as opposed to a manual system. With this more advanced technology, level 3 vehicles can make informed decisions for themselves such as overtaking slower moving vehicles. However, unlike the higher rated autonomous vehicles, human override is required when the machine is unable to execute the task at hand or the system fails.

That's a particularly vague definition, indistinct from Level 2. What's the source?

Automated Vehicles for Safety
SAE J3016 automated-driving graphic
Self-driving car - Wikipedia

The websites above all match my previous comment.
Lubestaff said:
Level 3 pertains to autonomous systems that expect intervention upon request.
 

qdeathstar

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From the wiki

The driver can safely turn their attention away from the driving tasks, e.g. the driver can text or watch a movie. The vehicle will handle situations that call for an immediate response, like emergency braking. The driver must still be prepared to intervene within some limited time, specified by the manufacturer,


I’d argue that in most cases this is totally possible. While the Tesla is keeping its lane it satisfies the first couple of lines. It’s just that the manufacturer specifies the time attention can be diverted as zero. But certainly attention can be averted. I routinely drive hours at a time without having to intervene in the system that is available now. I could totally watch a movie during those times, but the manufacturer has specified that I need to be attentive.
 
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run-the-joules

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Aug 13, 2017
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From the wiki

The driver can safely turn their attention away from the driving tasks, e.g. the driver can text or watch a movie. The vehicle will handle situations that call for an immediate response, like emergency braking. The driver must still be prepared to intervene within some limited time, specified by the manufacturer,


I’d argue that in most cases this is totally possible. While the Tesla is keeping its lane it satisfies the first couple of lines. It’s just that the manufacturer specifies the time attention can be diverted as zero. But certainly attention can be averted. I routinely drive hours at a time without having to intervene in the system that is available now. I could totally watch a movie during those times, but the manufacturer has specified that I need to be attentive.

...and as a result, it's a level 2 system. Once tesla says we don't need to pay attention and keep our hands on the wheel, then it's classifiable as level 3 because the primary responsibility is no longer ours.

so like I said: the current FSD beta is level 2.
 

qdeathstar

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...and as a result, it's a level 2 system. Once tesla says we don't need to pay attention and keep our hands on the wheel, then it's classifiable as level 3 because the primary responsibility is no longer ours.

so like I said: the current FSD beta is level 2.

no. That’s not what the definition says. The ability to and the manufacturer saying you can are two different things. Both clearly aren’t required to be level three. The required reaction time is specified by the manufacturer and there is no lower limit for that. So while you can turn your attention away, Tesla says you may not.

Do you even English class bro ;)
 
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run-the-joules

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Aug 13, 2017
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no. That’s not what the definition says. The ability to and the manufacturer saying you can are two different things. Both clearly aren’t required to be level three. The required reaction time is specifics by the manufacturer and there is no lower level for that. So while you can turn your attention away, Tesla says you may not.

Do you even English class bro ;)

alright, go on believing whatever you want. I'm never going to convince you, nor you me. This is a bigger waste of time and energy than even the money I paid for FSD was.
 

Lubestaff

Member
Sep 7, 2020
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Great, now realize that I provided links to the NHTSA and SAE.org. Yours is Jonathan Dyble from technologymagazine. Again, the definitions I provided, including from SAE itself, matched the comments with which you disagreed.

qdeathstar said:
The driver can safely turn their attention away from the driving tasks ... argue that in most cases this is totally possible

The wiki repeats the definitions above. Including explicit mention of the "System" as responsible for "Monitoring of driving environment". You can not legally turn your attention "away from the driving tasks, e.g ... text or watch a movie". You can not do it in practice either lest you seriously risk an accident as still evident in FSD Beta videos; "in practice" is also likely too vague for definition, making legality and liability the determining factor here, for me.

qdeathstar said:
...but the manufacturer has specified that I need to be attentive.

So you effectively can't drop attention, then. Thanks.

qdeathstar said:
I’d argue that in most cases this is totally possible. While the Tesla is keeping its lane it satisfies the first couple of lines. It’s just that the manufacturer specifies the time attention can be diverted as zero.

Premium content right here. You overrode the SAE.org definitions with those of Jonathan Dyble at technologymagazine (particularly poor one, too), made Musk proud when you reached all the way to Mars with that "from the wiki" follow-up, but this one brilliant remark takes the prize. I'd ask you if you "even English class", but I think the class would be beyond you ;)
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
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It’s not my fault you don’t understand the differences between the sae classes. You need to pay attention the road until level 4... it’s pretty obvious.
 

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