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Tesla offers no guarantees or assurances on battery for Model S or X

Discussion in 'Model S' started by siteexperts, Jun 25, 2020.

  1. siteexperts

    siteexperts Member

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    I own a 2015 Tesla P85DL (ludicrous upgrade) with 65000 miles. I supercharge less than 10 times a year and have trip charged even less. In 2018 I took one of my first road trips and had supercharging speeds dropping into the 30's kwh range very quickly (only supercharging to about 70%). I complained and was told nothing was wrong.

    In 2019, another trip and was equally slow with loud fan noises - they replaced the fan and said to let them know if it still seems slow.

    I finally took a trip 2 weeks ago (about 600 miles), stopped at 5 superchargers and almost every time I was the only one there (no shared chargers; and one was a V3; one time I was shared got basically the same charging rate). At every stop, the car took twice at least as long as predicted before I could continue (if it said 25 minutes; I was usually there an hour). Effectively I expect to charge 1 hour for every 2 hours of highway driving (charging from around 20-40 miles remaining to 170-180 before I continue). The car when I leave is charging at most 37kwh (and it drops very quickly to this level).

    According to service, this is average in my "old" car and is to be expected for its age and the battery is "healthy" (although they won't share any reports or diagnostics). Furthermore, they stated Tesla offers no guarantee on battery retention on a Model S or X. They said the model 3 "might" be better over time since it uses new types of batteries. Since I first reported this back in 2018, that means the lifespan of having a good supercharging experience for my car was at most 3 years.

    So.. since this is supposed to be average for my car; I am curious how other Model S's have aged and how many other P85D models are experiencing supercharging rates that easily take an hour to charge 130 miles? Am I being unreasonable?

    I was considering driving the car on a 3K mile road-trip but adding 50% more time to the trip for charging is not very "super". I love driving the Tesla and was considering going all electric but there is no way I am giving up my other gas car if Tesla's charging performance can degrade this much with no assurances.
     
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  2. Cheburashka

    Cheburashka Active Member

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  3. siteexperts

    siteexperts Member

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    I lost 10-15m range at some point also- I am not so bothered by that if my car would supercharge quickly. Was that also messed with? (my super-charging has sucked since at-least 2018)
     
  4. Cheburashka

    Cheburashka Active Member

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    Yes, Tesla capped the charging rate and capacity of the batteries.
     
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  5. Nick70d

    Nick70d Member

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    Same here with 2015 MS D
     
  6. siteexperts

    siteexperts Member

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    Thanks. Spending 50% of the time supercharging on road-trips is ridiculous on cars 3-5 years old and reasonable mileage (when they were delivered charging twice as fast).

    Not sure I would buy another Tesla as I have no trust in the company. I also had a X but sold it right when I got it due to other issues with the company (too many lies even when things are in writing - shouldn't be a battle when spending 100K plus on a car). They give qualified statements on the new cars (might be better over time; aka - no promises even the new cars get messed with). Feels like forced obsolescence.

    Love the car, hate the company.
     
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  7. Nick70d

    Nick70d Member

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    My road trips from MO to FL, gas car took 13.5 hours, mine is like 19 hours( 6 stops supercharging).
    So slow. Model 3 much faster charging rate. The car great but road trip is not so great. Keep my S for city daily driving.
     
  8. siteexperts

    siteexperts Member

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    I just don't trust them to throttle the new cars down the line. The "no assurances" and the new cars "should be better" as they age does not give me confidence. The fact they just tell you the battery is healthy from some diagnostic but won't share with you the report or any regression analysis that shows expectation over time is bothersome (every other car I have they are happy to give me all the diagnostics).

    Musk speaks in hyperbole and their written promises mean nothing (remember when autopilot came out it was "supposed" to have all the hardware needed for autonomous driving; even was told the hardware would be upgraded if needed; regardless if you believed it that was how they marketed it).

    If Tesla had good lease rates; that would probably be the way to go.

    Again, really like driving my Tesla (around town) - just wish I had more trust in the company.
     
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  9. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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    #9 Tam, Jun 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
    That's too slow.

    My 2012 Model S 85 RWD had 95,096 miles and the supercharge data was:

    0 minutes=37.2 miles=15%
    34 minutes=179.8 miles=72%

    upload_2020-6-26_0-3-35.png

    So, in your case, my car took only 34 minutes.

    42 minutes=199.8 miles=80%
    54 minutes=224.7 miles=90%

    It was consistently respectable to charge about 45 minutes and get about 200 miles on the battery gauge to continue on the road trip.

    Maybe Tesla didn't restrict my charge from 2012 to 2018 but I did heavily use Supercharger the majority of the time and the charging wait has been consistent for 6 years and almost 100,000 miles.

    But I guess, not every battery is the same.
     
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  10. David_Cary

    David_Cary Active Member

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    Very true that not every battery is the same or at least not every algorithm is the same.
    A friend has 100k miles on his 70 and supercharges twice a week - I believe he has an office near one and never bothered to put a charger at home.
    He gets 70 kw which isn't bad. The 70 was 100 kw when new.
    I haven't studied his taper but I suspect he charges to 80% given his habits.

    Hopefully our 3 will be better. Right now it charges so fast that a small slowdown wouldn't be a big deal. So while the future is unknown, presumably if you start at 250kw, you will stay fast enough for a long time.

    As far an "no guarantees" - that fact has been known around here for a long time. There is a warranty and certainly, if the car is undriveable, they will fix it.

    I purchased my car in 2015 (as you did) fully knowing that the history was unwritten. The early data on degradation was quite good but purchasing was a bit of a leap of faith.Overall, at 84k miles, my car/battery is doing very well. I need to replace my eMMC chip but no big rush. It has been a bit more snappy lately with current software so I am not allowing an update. But a $500 repair (and my labor) is perfectly reasonable for a 5 year old car with 84k on it.
     
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  11. SSedan

    SSedan Active Member

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    Last fall supercharging speed for my 2014 P85 97k wast terrible at high 20s outdoors. Don't supercharge a lot so my next chance was last week.
    5-90% was projected at 55minutes which is i believe close to what it was when I bought almost 3 years ago it was in the 80s though which may have helped. I have gotten several updates though so who knows what each of them.did to supercharging speed.

    Charge speed initially spiked to 128, then fell to 120 immediately and began to ramp down fairly quickly.
     
  12. Chaserr

    Chaserr Hyperactive Hyperdrive

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    Welcome to chargegate / batterygate. There's an NHTSA investigation into it and since Tesla said they crippled our cars due to fires, there will be an involuntary recall for our batteries eventually.

    Agree!
     
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  13. ucmndd

    ucmndd Well-Known Member

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    OP, this individual is party to the lawsuit and has a curious habit of stating their far-from-certain desired outcomes as facts. So please don’t interpret this as an actual remedy that will be available to you any time in the near future, or ever.
     
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  14. glide

    glide Active Member

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    All 85 battery owners are party to the lawsuit. It’s a class action. So that includes OP as well.
     
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  15. ucmndd

    ucmndd Well-Known Member

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    Chaserr is an active participant, maybe even a lead plaintiff? Far different than a class member.

    At any rate, it’s irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that he is notoriously making authoritative factual claims that have no connection to reality.
     
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  16. maximizese

    maximizese Member

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    We have 96K miles on our 11/13 built S85 and had no qualms with the car or Tesla until June 2019 when the software update appeared to have capped the voltage to the battery cells limiting the maximum capacity, reducing acceleration power, reducing range, and dramatically increasing Supercharging session times. Before the update, we'd stumble upon a bad connection or a bad stall about 10% of the time but would get a quick remedy by unplugging and blowing on the plug (much like the trick with the old cartridge-based video games) or moving to a different stall. 80% of the time, we were happy with plugging in around 20% SOC and coming back 40 minutes later to an ~80% charge.

    After the update, we'll see initial charge speeds anywhere from 38kW to 128kW (one time we saw a dreaded 8kW). Unfortunately we only see rates above 80kW about half the time and we always see a quick taper down to the 70s within minutes. Because of this slower Supercharging behavior, we spend a little bit more time charging and rely on leaving with a lower SOC% and drive to the next available Supercharger lot. I figure my time is better spent driving towards my destination rather than sitting around charging below 44kW.

    There were rumblings of a "new 350V 85kWh" battery pack (part number 1014116-00-A) that seemed to have more range and faster Supercharging, but apparently that battery pack has been removed from Tesla's parts catalog. I'm hoping Tesla will release an upgraded battery pack because I would love more range, power, and shorter charging times, and I don't want a newer Tesla. We love our pre-AP MS and would love to increase its utility.
     
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  17. FoxSTL2HOU

    FoxSTL2HOU Member

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    As far as guarantees are concerned, I'll have to go look for the old Elon quote of "you'll always be able to drive faster than you charge."

    So OP's "one hour charging to two hours driving" is still 2x better than the Elon guarantee!
     
  18. TMThree

    TMThree Member

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    My model 3 is 15 months old, 16,000 miles. The projected range bounces around a lot, but over the last 6 months, the average value is 323.73 (from the original 325 miles). So thats 0.4% loss, or 0.084 miles per month loss.

    That said, I do a lot of things that are good for the battery:

    1. I charge just before leaving, so the battery is never sitting at a high SoC.
    2. My daily SoC is 65%, and I arrive at work at 55%, so when I get home the car is 45% and it stays there till around 6am the next day when it charges to 65% again.
    3. I charge to 90% for weekend trips to keep BMS from seeing mileage skew.

    I've done a few supercharges (maybe 10 total), but don't use it often. 40A at home on my nema 14-50.

    I haven't heard much in the way of problems for model 3 on battery, and I'd expect all newer batts to be similar. The 100 kwh batts in S also sound like they are doing well.
     
  19. whitex

    whitex Well-Known Member

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    Elon's statements are non-binding, plenty of things Elon said that never materialized. The problem is that Tesla battery warranty was supposed to be all inclusive, but they are using the fact that boundaries were never very explicit to instead redefine it reduce coverage whenever a larger number of cars experience a problem. Think yellow screens, first covered under warranty, but when enough cars had the problem, it became "normal wear and tear" according to Tesla. Same with batteries, 80% range used to their threshold, then when too many cars fell below 80% they changed it to 70% (now officially in new car warranty text too, so that what your new 400 mile S you buy today becomes a 280 mile car, it's still considered "normal" and not covered under warranty). Tesla is continually gambling with new and unproven technologies, and then passes the cost of lost bets onto the customers by changing the warranty coverages, reducing the car's capabilities via OTA updates, etc.
     
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  20. r1200gs4ok

    r1200gs4ok Active Member

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    wow....my wife's M3 is 1 yr old and has 7300 miles....we have never seen more than 279 at 90%....I charged to 100% this morning and it shows 299 miles....should I go to the service center and have then check it out?
     
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