Tesla Pickup Truck

[wdolson]

Model P is such an obvious next step. Pickup trucks are the top choice (#1, 2, 3 are Fseries, Silverado and Ram in 2016) in the US. If you want to change the whole country's view of EV and alternative fuels you need to include the white collar truck drivers and their bosses. Especially in oil rich areas.

I think of the Model P 90D of more a GMC Sierra Denali, Cadillac or Lincoln Blackwood. A truck that the foreman or owner drives, which is both luxury and utility, to retain respect from the workers and shows accomplishment. Then a simpler, Model P 75D, is the equivalent Chevy or Ford version, which can be available for workers.

The actual R&D shouldn't be too much more than the X considering it already hauls 5,000lbs. A little development and a true truck competitor will emerge from Tesla.

The mostly men and mostly suburban and rural buyers of those trucks are the most resistant to electric vehicles. These are the people going on about "clean coal" and modifying diesel pickups to spew as much black exhaust as possible:

That people who are buying those trucks today will largely resist an electric truck, even if it is better. They are so brand loyal they will keep buying the same brand, even when one of the other two truck makers comes out with something better. A friend of mine's husband is so ill with diabetes he can barely walk. Getting into his Dodge Ram truck is so difficult he rarely drives it anymore and takes their minivan. He won't consider anything but Chrysler, despite the company's decline (they recently announced they are going to stop making cars in the US to concentrate on trucks) and talks about getting another pickup, even though he can't drive the one he has.

People are stuck thinking about Tesla as a luxury vehicle brand. Elon Musk has said many times that's just temporary. His goal is to make cars for everyone, to be another Ford or Toyota, not a BMW or Mercedes. They make only expensive cars now because that was always part of the plan. The Model 3 is the transition to a mainstream car. And they will make a mainstream truck too.

However, they would be fools not to focus on fleet sales first. Fleet buyers don't have the brand loyalty individual buyers might have. They go with the bottom line and if an EV pickup is cheaper, they will buy it. Tesla could easily sell 1 million + trucks a year just focusing on this market.

I'm sure they will have a higher trim truck available for individuals who want a pickup but aren't locked into the ultra brand loyalty the big three have with their trucks. I'm sure such a truck will sell in numbers on par with the Model S and X today, at least initially. Over time the personal EV truck market will grow and new consumers not as blinded by old brand loyalty come into the market (many of whom will be pre-disposed to want an EV) and some of the old breed will grudgingly switch when they finally admit an EV pickup is better.

By the time the die hards are switching one or more of the Big 3 could be out of business and/or Tesla will own at least one of them. Stranger things have happened, AOL bought Time/Warner.

I think that a whole lot of 'nudging' has been done over the past few decades. The US market has caused quite a bit of changes to take place in a lot of product lines. Quite a few have felt it was 'unfair' to 'game the system', but I disagree. If a car meets the letter of the law, that by default means it also supports the spirit of the law.

The Honda Accord was first classified as a Midsize car in 1990, and traditional automobile manufacturers (particularly the Detroit Big Three) protested that assessment. They felt it wasn't truly Midsize, because of its length and weight compared to their own offerings. But they overlooked even then that the classification was based on interior volume and cargo space. The Accord just barely qualified as Midsize, but it DID qualify.

If a consumer is going out shopping for a new car, they do tend to look in a given classification and if a car officially fits into that category, they might give it a look when they wouldn't before. However, I also think it's confusing for a car company to have two or three midsized cars in their lineup.

The reason other manufacturers protested is because the Accord also met CAFE regulations, and met CARB requirements to be classified as a Zero Harmful Emissions Vehicle, while also passing all the NTSB/NHTSA safety crash tests with high marks. Oh, and that version of the Accord went on to be the best selling car in the US that year. Detroit didn't like this because it proved all their own points wrong.

They insisted that it was impossible to build safe, small cars. They insisted it was impossible to sell large, fuel efficient cars. They insisted that it was impossible to meet emissions requirements while also building the types of vehicles the American public wanted to buy.

That is a specific instance that I don't think is completely relevant today. There are more midsized cars available today, but nobody has really come out with better fuel economy than anyone else. In fact the fuel economy of a lot of car models as declined as they got bigger.

Why? The Honda CR-V is basically a Civic Tallwagon. As the Civic has grown in size, so has the CR-V. And both have grown in US sales as they've become larger as well. It seems the Tesla Model ☰ as is will be perfectly placed to be a platform to be used to go after the smaller SUV/Crossover market with its Model Y and/or Crossover design.

Currently, the Honda Civic has a 106" wheelbase, while the CR-V has a 103" wheelbase. At 345,647 units sold in 2015, the CR-V was the single best selling SUV in the United States. The Toyota RAV4 came in at #2 with 315,412 units sold. And at #3 was the Ford Escape with 306,492 units. Considering those numbers, Tesla is well placed to take on them all, while absolutely demolishing sales of Acura, AUDI, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lexus, and Mercedes-Benz offerings in that size class.

I say that because the Model 3 isn't anywhere near the size of the Civic. It's dimensions are bigger than the current Honda Accord. By EPA standards the Model 3 may end up classed as a large car.

The known dimensions of the Model 3 are 184 inches long, 56.5 inches high, 74.2 inches wide, and 113 inch wheelbase. The current Accord is 57.7 inches high, 109.3 inch wheelbase, 73 inches wide, and 190-193 inches long. The Civic has a 106.3 inch wheelbase, with a 177-182 length, and is 71 inches wide.

The M3 is a little shorter than the Accord, but it's wider with a longer wheelbase. The M3 is bigger than the Civic in every dimension.

Any SUV built on that platform won't be considered anything close to a compact SUV. The width and wheelbase of a platform are the two dimensions that can't be changed cheaply and rarely are. So any SUV built on the M3 platform will start with a 113 inch wheelbase are pretty close to 74 inches wide (it could vary a little if the body flares out a little more or less).

I think that once Tesla Motors offers a heavy duty long range full sized pickup truck, their success is guaranteed. 300 miles range, with 150+ mile range while towing 15,000 lbs, would mean they could sell every single one they built.

At this point the only thing that could kill Tesla would be a major screw up on their part (the Model 3 ends up being a disaster nobody wants) or something external happens like the economy craters as bad or worse than 2008. I see the Tesla pickup as moving them from a solid niche brand into a full scale competitor to the Big 3. That is a tipping point, but a different one than the viability tipping point.

Hence, why NADA is working overtime to make sure as few people as possible have an opportunity to experience a Tesla Motors product first hand in the US. Here's an example of their Scareducation:

More FUD.

And yet, for all their strength, the 'independent franchised dealerships' are continually allowed to maintain the fiction that they are mom & pop shops that barely squeeze by on a pitiful profit margin.

I have a friend who's first husband owned car dealerships. He's quite wealthy. There are some "mon & pop" used car dealers around here, but the new car dealers are far from small enterprises. Most are regional corporations with many dealerships in many cities.

What gets me is the resistance in Texas. The home of DELL Computer. They manufacture their PCs, and sell them direct, across the US, and around the world. There is no 'protection' for retailers to prevent them from doing so. And though there are now some retailers that sell DELL products, none of those retailers aims to shut down DELL's own website sales. The product isn't illegal. Why should the direct sales method be illegal?

The politics in Texas has changed a lot since Dell was founded. Additionally Dell was a Texas based company and Tesla is a Californian company (Texans hate California to a large degree) and Texas is still the center of the oil universe. Even though there is little oil left in Texas to pump out of the ground (except the strategic oil reserve where played out oil well were refilled), Houston is the center of the entire world-wide oil business. It's pretty much impossible to be a professional in the oil business and not have to go to Houston many times in your career.

When NADA went to the Texas legislature and told them that a California company was going to put good Texas companies, both dealerships and oil companies, out of business, they found a very sympathetic ear.

Many of us see Tesla as a tech company that builds cars, but that isn't the way everyone sees them.

I believe this discussion is tangentially related to the original post. A compact/mini SUV is today's more popular configuration of a midsize pickup truck after all. And, without being allowed to distribute their products as they see fit, a Tesla Motors full-sized pickup truck may not be able to reach the American public in good numbers, or where most needed. Besides, I posted a few pictures and renderings of a pickup truck design earlier. So, yeah... I'm on topic. Really, I am.

Let's hope the mods don't thump us for it. I'm good with topic drift myself. I think some good thoughts come out of pursuing other thoughts, but not everyone agrees with me.

 

[YBT]

I suspect Tesla Motors considered the option to be too gimmicky, sort of like the constant requests to have solar panels on the roof to power fans in the car. That said, they do offer USB ports to charge/power handheld devices... And there is also the 12v port, which can be used with a 3rd party inverter to plugin other accessories or appliances as needed.

An inverter plugged into the 12V circuit is limited to 120W max draw. How pray tell can I run my angle grinder off this? Obviously Tesla have their reasons for not including this feature in the Model S/X as they prioritised other elements. It would be a pretty big dropped ball not to see this kind of functionality in upcoming commercial vehicles so I'm confident it will be made available.

 

[wdolson]

Tesla could run an inverter off the main battery with 120V (240V in other parts of the world) plugs rather than off the 12V circuit. The concern there would be people charging up at the supercharger, going home, and running their house off the car. Elon has made it clear it would be a misuse of the technology to power a house with the car.

 

[Red Sage]

An inverter plugged into the 12V circuit is limited to 120W max draw. How pray tell can I run my angle grinder off this? Obviously Tesla have their reasons for not including this feature in the Model S/X as they prioritised other elements. It would be a pretty big dropped ball not to see this kind of functionality in upcoming commercial vehicles so I'm confident it will be made available.

I'm sure that Tesla Motors is fully aware of the options provided by other manufacturers. But again, some of them are really gimmicks -- something to show off a few times, then never get any real use out of...

 

[wdolson]

VIA is interesting, but they have been flying under the radar for a long time.

That Jay Leno's Garage video is from 2012. Back in 2013 they said they would be starting production in 1Q 2014, but production didn't start until 2015. However they still aren't selling to the public. They are only selling to select fleet users and they are very quiet about what their production numbers are.

The most recent thing is they are making a bit of noise about the Obama administration's EV incentive program. I suspect they are cash strapped.

In addition, they are taking a GM pickup and putting in their drive train. Chevrolet dealers are also servicing the trucks, so it's sort of a partnership with GM.

 

[jdevo2004]

I see a lot of "utes" in this thread and not a lot of actual trucks. If Tesla wants a share of the North American truck market then they better design and build an actual truck. People buy trucks because they can use them as trucks. They do not want some sort of city truck or half car half truck or mini truck. They want a real truck.
A North American truck needs at the very least 4 real seats for adults, a 6 foot box, a 1/2 ton capacity, off roading ability, and good towing capacity.
If anything, the Model 3 has shown us that Tesla is not afraid to move the passenger cab forward towards the front wheels to create more room in the back. That is probably what we can expect from a Tesla truck. If we see a Tesla truck made from the Model S/X platform wheelbase, a cab forward design is a must to accommodate a real box.
Here are some real trucks that fit the bar minimum standard:
Nissan Titan

Toyota Tundra

Ford F-150

 

[jdevo2004]

A cab forward Tesla truck of my dreams:

 

[WATTS-UP]

How ugly can you make this pick-up

 

[RobStark]

 

[wdolson]

I can't do a Photoshop rendering, but here are my thoughts on what the Tesla pickup is going to have. I expect they will move the cab forward and there will be a frunk, but it won't be massive. The nose will look more like a van's than a pickup's, or at most a hybrid of a van and pickup nose.

The windshield will not be the Model X windshield, it will be fairly standard. They are focused on mass produced cars now and the big windshield on the X is very expensive. The door handles might be like the X's, just hotspots you touch to open the door.

I also expect there will be some kind of aerodynamics for the bed. I wouldn't be surprised if the tailgate sloped and there was a removable tonneau cover that instead of being a flat bed cover like trucks today will attach to the top of the cab in the back and extend to the tailgate. It would have to have some kind of window in it or some other way for the driver to see out the back (camera maybe). Tesla wants to get the best aerodynamics they can get so there will be something like this to improve the drag.

Most pickup drivers rarely carry anything bulky enough to require removal of the cover, but it will be quickly removable for those times when an open bed is necessary.

 

[Red Sage]

Much of what I have to say on this subject can be found at this link:

Model U - The Tesla Pickup Truck | Tesla Motors

I might copy some of it here later.

 

[Red Sage]

A cab forward Tesla truck of my dreams:

Hmmm... This looks like early concept renders of Toyota displayed some years ago. I liked it. I doubt it will ever be released. Here are some photos of the actual A-BAT concept they built:

 

[Red Sage]

I really don't like the detached bed. For the sake of safety and ride quality, not to mention aesthetics, I believe Tesla Motors will build their pickups with a unibody construction technique. Ford, Chevrolet, and RAM like to leave the option for third parties to customize what appears behind the cabin. Tesla Motors won't. So, if there are other varieties of their trucks to be offered (camper, flatbed, cargo, tool, dump...) they will design those vehicles from the ground up.

 

[wdolson]

I really don't like the detached bed. For the sake of safety and ride quality, not to mention aesthetics, I believe Tesla Motors will build their pickups with a unibody construction technique. Ford, Chevrolet, and RAM like to leave the option for third parties to customize what appears behind the cabin. Tesla Motors won't. So, if there are other varieties of their trucks to be offered (camper, flatbed, cargo, tool, dump...) they will design those vehicles from the ground up.

I disagree. Tesla is telegraphing in other areas they are aiming at non-consumer markets with the mini-bus and the autonomous car that can be rented out.

In the pickup world there is a vast array of beds dropped onto commercial truck chassis. Any company that would try to supply all those options from the factory would find many customers complaining that their configuration isn't offered, or they would go broke trying to provide every option available. And Tesla is gunning for the fleet market first with the pickup.

It will have a separate bed and the bed will be a similar to the big 3s truck beds at the base so the aftermarket boxes out there with little modification work. They may have some novel way to cover up the seam behind the cab and it might have some things to be more aerodynamic, but it will be designed from the ground up to be a work truck.

People keep thinking of Tesla as a luxury vehicle maker. Elon Musk has said over and over again that that is just a phase of the company and the plans are to be a mainstream company like Ford or Toyota. They learned their lesson with the X, innovation for innovation's sake is a mistake. If an innovation advances their long term goals and it's cheap enough and easy enough to manufacture, it will make it in a wide range of Tesla's vehicles. But expect their vehicles to become more practical and less luxurious. There will be cool features that are artifacts of the drivetrain design like a frunk on the truck, but if the frunk will be sacrificed in a nanosecond if they come up with some practical use for that space other than cargo.

 

[Red Sage]

I disagree. Tesla is telegraphing in other areas they are aiming at non-consumer markets with the mini-bus and the autonomous car that can be rented out.

I see those as alternative transportation. The 'consumers' will pay for the service, not the vehicles.

In the pickup world there is a vast array of beds dropped onto commercial truck chassis. Any company that would try to supply all those options from the factory would find many customers complaining that their configuration isn't offered, or they would go broke trying to provide every option available. And Tesla is gunning for the fleet market first with the pickup.

And those various configurations are currently allowed with no consideration whatsoever for crash survivability. The trend for so very long has been that anyone could do whatever they wanted behind the cab. There is no way that will last with this being a litigious society destined to be reigned in by insurance companies at every turn. Vehicles sold to municipalities might end up being exempt from such consideration, but not everyone else.

It will have a separate bed and the bed will be a similar to the big 3s truck beds at the base so the aftermarket boxes out there with little modification work. They may have some novel way to cover up the seam behind the cab and it might have some things to be more aerodynamic, but it will be designed from the ground up to be a work truck.

Tesla Motors is not likely to be going out of their way to make life easy for major aftermarket vendors anytime soon. The furthest they will go for some time is to allow access to information to be used for towing rigs, from weight distribution hitches to fifth-wheel applications. But the typical six post wooden fence or camper shell applications will not be allowed at all. If those aren't going to happen, neither are the aftermarket flatbed, toolbox bed, dumptruck, or other specialized coachwork styles will be allowed either. This is similar to how people who want to do their own wrenching as shade tree mechanics have been stymied by Tesla Motors. I keep reminding people that the Model T had been around at least 30 years before people started to seriously do aftermarket tuning of street cars for performance. NASCAR didn't start in the 1920s.

People keep thinking of Tesla as a luxury vehicle maker. Elon Musk has said over and over again that that is just a phase of the company and the plans are to be a mainstream company like Ford or Toyota. They learned their lesson with the X, innovation for innovation's sake is a mistake. If an innovation advances their long term goals and it's cheap enough and easy enough to manufacture, it will make it in a wide range of Tesla's vehicles. But expect their vehicles to become more practical and less luxurious. There will be cool features that are artifacts of the drivetrain design like a frunk on the truck, but if the frunk will be sacrificed in a nanosecond if they come up with some practical use for that space other than cargo.

I don't think in terms of 'luxury' or 'exclusivity' at all. But Tesla Motors isn't going to allow any outside party to take control of their platforms for vehicles. If that were the case, they would be offering conversion kits for RAM, Silverado, and F-Series vehicles instead of announcing plans to build their own trucks. The notion that a pickup truck platform has to be a free base to build upon as one wishes must go to the wayside. The whole ladder frame, live axle, and leaf spring suspension concept hails back to horse drawn wagons and simply must be updated to modern times.

Yes, Tesla Motors has learned lessons from past mistakes. Their own, as well as others'. Among those is that trying to work from existing concepts of automotive design leads to delays as newer technology simply doesn't 'fit' the original format, that major automotive manufacturers do not appreciate efforts to fully electrify their existing car designs, designing a vehicle with first principles thinking from the ground up is better than making assumptions that things have to be done 'the way they always were -- just because'.

The only reason ICE trucks were built with a cab up front and a bed in the back was because that is how horse drawn wagons had been built for centuries. Not necessarily because it was the best design for an ICE platform. They just wanted to keep things familiar, so as to not shock the public too much over the driving experience.

 

[theboom1]

I see those as alternative transportation. The 'consumers' will pay for the service, not the vehicles.


And those various configurations are currently allowed with no consideration whatsoever for crash survivability. The trend for so very long has been that anyone could do whatever they wanted behind the cab. There is no way that will last with this being a litigious society destined to be reigned in by insurance companies at every turn. Vehicles sold to municipalities might end up being exempt from such consideration, but not everyone else.

Tesla Motors is not likely to be going out of their way to make life easy for major aftermarket vendors anytime soon. The furthest they will go for some time is to allow access to information to be used for towing rigs, from weight distribution hitches to fifth-wheel applications. But the typical six post wooden fence or camper shell applications will not be allowed at all. If those aren't going to happen, neither are the aftermarket flatbed, toolbox bed, dumptruck, or other specialized coachwork styles will be allowed either. This is similar to how people who want to do their own wrenching as shade tree mechanics have been stymied by Tesla Motors. I keep reminding people that the Model T had been around at least 30 years before people started to seriously do aftermarket tuning of street cars for performance. NASCAR didn't start in the 1920s.


I don't think in terms of 'luxury' or 'exclusivity' at all. But Tesla Motors isn't going to allow any outside party to take control of their platforms for vehicles. If that were the case, they would be offering conversion kits for RAM, Silverado, and F-Series vehicles instead of announcing plans to build their own trucks. The notion that a pickup truck platform has to be a free base to build upon as one wishes must go to the wayside. The whole ladder frame, live axle, and leaf spring suspension concept hails back to horse drawn wagons and simply must be updated to modern times.

Yes, Tesla Motors has learned lessons from past mistakes. Their own, as well as others'. Among those is that trying to work from existing concepts of automotive design leads to delays as newer technology simply doesn't 'fit' the original format, that major automotive manufacturers do not appreciate efforts to fully electrify their existing car designs, designing a vehicle with first principles thinking from the ground up is better than making assumptions that things have to be done 'the way they always were -- just because'.

The only reason ICE trucks were built with a cab up front and a bed in the back was because that is how horse drawn wagons had been built for centuries. Not necessarily because it was the best design for an ICE platform. They just wanted to keep things familiar, so as to not shock the public too much over the driving experience.

Why do you feel things need to be updated just because? I have noticed its this way with you about everything not just the autonomous car thing but now this? Why update something when its works perfectly and its what everyone wants? I don't think you realize the not everyone shares you thought process when it come to cars. Actually I would venture to say that quite a few don't, the vast majority actually. As as additional point, the regulations are not going to be the end all be all. Its not the regulations that control everything its the buyers and what they want. Take the mpg requirement for future ICE cars for example. Due to people wanting trucks and suv's car companies are having trouble getting their fleet averages up so they are currently in the process of getting the requirements lowered and I am fairly confident that they will be lowered. You have got to get out you your utopia world and talk to some people that are not on this site.

It must have a true bed, not this hatchback with no roof crap. It will never sell if their is no real bed, their are to many things that use beds ranging from the tool boxes to truck campers and everything in between.

 

[neroden]

My vision is much simpler. Model S / X like nose (for crash safety). Two-door cab. Then the self-leveling bed. With optional hard cap.

How important are those ludicrous extended cabs and crew cabs anyway? They make no sense for work trucks. If they're too much of the market, Tesla may have to provide them. But it's much easier to provide a good work pickup with a regular cab. The extended cab and the bed are fighting for space, and only one of them can win. I guess you can just make an extra-long vehicle, but that has its own problems (doesn't fit in parking spaces, etc.)

If you're shrinking the bed too much in order to provide a huge cab, the customer should really be buying a sedan (S) or minivan (X). Though I suppose there are a disturbing number of "lifestyle" pickup buyers who just use it as a fashion statement.

 

[andrerodpt]

I think we can all agree that there is no type of "truck to rule them all". You can't design a single truck and appeal to all target audience of trucks. Let's just hope Tesla knows the target they're aiming.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Target the market leader. F150 I believe. Make a compelling alternative. Take market share. Become new leader.

 

[wdolson]

My vision is much simpler. Model S / X like nose (for crash safety). Two-door cab. Then the self-leveling bed. With optional hard cap.

How important are those ludicrous extended cabs and crew cabs anyway? They make no sense for work trucks. If they're too much of the market, Tesla may have to provide them. But it's much easier to provide a good work pickup with a regular cab. The extended cab and the bed are fighting for space, and only one of them can win. I guess you can just make an extra-long vehicle, but that has its own problems (doesn't fit in parking spaces, etc.)

I expect they will start with the Model S/X platform and expand it. The front parts can be modified from the cheaper and easier to build parts of the Model X. The X has the height a truck will need. The chassis will need to be reinforced and lengthened to make a truck. The Model X is 116.7 inch wheelbase and the F-150 wheelbase ranges from 122 to 163 inches. The F-250/F-350 ranges from 137-172 inches.

The extended platform will allow for more batteries between the wheels. They may offer a short range "entry" level pickup, but a serious work truck is going to require a huge battery pack. It will have more drag plus it will be heavier, and it needs to be capable of hauling good sized loads at least some distance.

They will have to offer a standard and extended length truck. There is a strong market for both. Some fleet buyers will buy the crew cab trucks. That style was originally only available in the work trucks, but the fashion truck buyers made enough noise they made them available in the higher trim models too. There are work cases where a literal crew of some kind needs to go out in a truck to get the job done, hence the name of the body style. Though I think the bulk of crew cabs are sold to fashion buyers these days.

Extended cabs are a trade off between bed length and the ability to carry more stuff or people in the cab.

Tesla will probably be able to get away with a little bit shorter wheelbase by moving the passenger compartment forward and making the nose shorter. They don't need a big V-8 up there like ICE trucks need.

If you're shrinking the bed too much in order to provide a huge cab, the customer should really be buying a sedan (S) or minivan (X). Though I suppose there are a disturbing number of "lifestyle" pickup buyers who just use it as a fashion statement.

My SO's law partner is one of those. He said he was just getting a pickup to haul his jet skis, but he ended up getting a $60K land yacht and he's added various mods like a showy light kit. Though he's been drooling since I got the Model S.