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Tesla Radar Speculation

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Note this is all speculation on my part, no hard evidence of this yet: I have a theory that I am toying with about the very large blind spot in front of the bumper and a lot of recent happenings with the removal of USS. The complete silence about the USS removal topic when Elon has been prodded by his Twitter followers is a bit telling. I think there is more to this story than Tesla wants to let on right now, perhaps to avoid people rejecting 2022 models in hopes of getting the new 2023 changes with no USS.

In February Elon tweeted "Only very high resolution radar is relevant."

In June Tesla filed with the FCC their HD Radar (application 2AEIM-1541584), in which they requested 180 days of confidentiality on several documents including user manual updates (which tend to be car manuals based on previous FCC applications), internal and external photos of the HD radar, and test set-up photos. This type of confidentiality request isn't that out of the ordinary for things they will be putting into the cars soon. The confidentiality of these expires on December 4th, 2022 and will be released at that time.

Just one month ago the Tesla HD radar leaked into the Model X parts manual and has since been removed. The timing of a brand new part accidentally leaking into the EPC just a month before they start producing the next model year is a bit suspicious on its own.

About a week later Elon tweeted about how "Replacement cameras will be available early next month" for older S/X cars waiting on them. A curious statement unless there was a camera shortage that we didn't know about and he was expecting a shipment. The far more likely reason for this now is he knew they would have extra HW2.5 cameras available for retrofits because they were switching new cars over to new model repeater cameras. This doesn't have anything to do with HD radar itself, but read on.

Then about a week ago with the USS announcement, Elon has been utterly silent on the topic and not responding to the first thing people noticed: The cameras are different, they appear to have a larger lens, higher FOV, and appear very slightly angled in comparison to the previous cameras. See this twitter thread on the topic.

We have known this from just looking at the Dashcam, but Sandy Munro's team showed there is a decent blind spot directly in front of the front bumper from the cameras that Tesla will have no sensor information about when USS is removed.
1666057505809.png


What if the answer is much simpler than Tesla is letting on and they do not want to talk about the cameras and radar to avoid people rejecting 2022s knowing 2023s have updates to the FSD hardware suite. What if Tesla is introducing the HD radar that Elon said was all that would be relevant less than a year ago? Tesla may not actually be creating a huge blind spot in front of the bumper if, in fact the HD radar is included with the new models but they aren't willing to publicly disclose it yet. They would get sensor information from that radar about objects right in front of the bumper.

As of right now the idea that the car is losing USS in 2023 models is a driver for people to want their 2022 cars. This isn't the first time this happened, last year Tesla was fairly quiet about the AMD MCUs going into 3/Y until customers started noticing it, and that was far more obvious. They are also probably confident enough that no one is going to go digging that deeply into their brand new 2023 car before they do announce this information. In addition they likely want to avoid too much confusion about the whole "Tesla Vision" topic all at once.

The only real way to see the radar area is to remove the front bumper, and I think it would be super interesting if someone who does get a 2023 model does take a look.
 
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Note this is all speculation on my part, no hard evidence of this yet: I have a theory that I am toying with about the very large blind spot in front of the bumper and a lot of recent happenings with the removal of USS. The complete silence about the USS removal topic when Elon has been prodded by his Twitter followers is a bit telling. I think there is more to this story than Tesla wants to let on right now, perhaps to avoid people rejecting 2022 models in hopes of getting the new 2023 changes with no USS.

In February Elon tweeted "Only very high resolution radar is relevant."

In June Tesla filed with the FCC their HD Radar (application 2AEIM-1541584), in which they requested 180 days of confidentiality on several documents including user manual updates (which tend to be car manuals based on previous FCC applications), internal and external photos of the HD radar, and test set-up photos. This type of confidentiality request isn't that out of the ordinary for things they will be putting into the cars soon. The confidentiality of these expires on December 4th, 2022 and will be released at that time.

Just one month ago the Tesla HD radar leaked into the Model X parts manual and has since been removed. The timing of a brand new part accidentally leaking into the EPC just a month before they start producing the next model year is a bit suspicious on its own.

About a week later Elon tweeted about how "Replacement cameras will be available early next month" for older S/X cars waiting on them. A curious statement unless there was a camera shortage that we didn't know about and he was expecting a shipment. The far more likely reason for this now is he knew they would have extra HW2.5 cameras available for retrofits because they were switching new cars over to a new model repeater cameras. This doesn't have anything to do with HD radar itself, but read on.

Then about a week ago with the USS announcement, Elon has been utterly silent on the topic and not responding to the first thing people noticed: The cameras are different, they appear to have a larger lens, higher FOV, and appear very slightly angled in comparison to the previous cameras. See this twitter thread on the topic.

We have known this from just looking at the Dashcam, but Sandy Munro's team showed there is a decent blind spot directly in front of the front bumper from the cameras that Tesla will have no sensor information about when USS is removed.
View attachment 864870

What if the answer is much simpler than Tesla is letting on and they do not want to talk about the cameras and radar to avoid people rejecting 2022s knowing 2023s have updates to the FSD hardware suite. As of right now the idea that the car is losing USS in 2023 models is a driver for people to get their 2022 cars. This isn't the first time this happened, last year it was a similar thing with the AMD MCUs going into 3/Y. Tesla may not actually be creating a huge blind spot in front of the bumper if, in fact, they are finally introducing the HD radar with the new models but they aren't willing to publicly disclose it yet. They are also probably confident enough that no one is going to go digging that deeply into their brand new 2023 car before they do announce this information. They also want to avoid too much confusion about the whole "Tesla Vision" topic all at once.

The only real way to see the radar area is to remove the front bumper, and I think it would be super interesting if someone who does get a 2023 model does take a look.
You can bet people are salivating to do a full car tear down just for the Youtube views.

I think HD Radar is imminent, but no idea if it'll hit any car before CT which will have a much larger (read lethal) blindspot.

Sadly, I'm losing hope that it will be the Phoenix Arbe radar which has the highest resolution on the market. They are slated to go full production with Veoneer mid-2023.

Chances are, Tesla will cheap out and go for something with 10x less fidelity to chase profit margins instead or safety.
 
Expect companies like Ford, GM, Stellantis (Dodge/Ram/Chrysler), Mercedes-Benz, Volvo and Subaru etc etc to go full saftey mode and source from Veoneer on their all in one ADAS product(s).

Arbe has buyin from Globalfoundries to meet all customers needs with the new chipset.

While I agree, all these OEMs are far behind the AI curve which Tesla is currently leading... their quality/luxury and customer service will win back a lot of customers that went to Tesla and are highly underwhelmed with oversold capabilities.

If all "other" cars (including ICE) are running with Veoneer/Arbe (also back by Nvidia AI learning) they'll quickly swamp Tesla's data collection capabilities.
 
well some 2023 models have already been delivered, wouldn't we know already if a new radar was installed on the front ?
If radar is added back it would likely be turned off until a certain software update. So without someone removing the bumper we would not know.

My unfounded and worthless conjecture is the new radar will only go in the future Robotaxi and/or Semi and current "consumer" cars won't get it. Also believe we (consumer cars) will be limited to L3 FSD which is fine by me.
 
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Hi,
We have a Model 3 Performance with Enhanced Auto Pilot on order since April.
Living in Abu Dhabi means that our car is on a ship from China and is due imminently.
I have been told that it is the latest 2023 model - so likely without USS.
My theory - ands it all mine is as follows:-
The 2023 cars will have newer high resolution 5mp Samsung cameras
They may also have the higher resolution front radar fitted.
Elon does not like to be seen as “wrong” - so the removal of USS & the addition of the radar is an excuse to add radar back - without losing face.
This can then be used for parking assistance, smart summon etc. - as well as Autopilot functions to remove phantom braking issues.
Elon already said 3 or 4 weeks ago that he had given the software engineers until end of September to release the improved Summon, Smart Summon & Auto parking software - this is now late and people will be getting the 2023 cars before the software is actually ready.
This, of course, is a problem - but there is always a small chance that the 2023 cars - if equipped with better cameras & radar will eventually perform better than 2022 cars.
Of course, there is always a possibility that the extra hardware only appears on cars that had Enhanced Auto Pilot or FSD as part of the original order.
In the future - if people wanted to add this functionality to a 2023 & later car - they might need to have some hardware retrofitted in addition to the relevant software.

Time will tell what the reality is!
I just hope that I am right and will end up with an improvement over a 2022 car - rather than a downgrade!
Cheers
Steve
 
Note this is all speculation on my part, no hard evidence of this yet: I have a theory that I am toying with about the very large blind spot in front of the bumper and a lot of recent happenings with the removal of USS. The complete silence about the USS removal topic when Elon has been prodded by his Twitter followers is a bit telling. I think there is more to this story than Tesla wants to let on right now, perhaps to avoid people rejecting 2022 models in hopes of getting the new 2023 changes with no USS.

In February Elon tweeted "Only very high resolution radar is relevant."

In June Tesla filed with the FCC their HD Radar (application 2AEIM-1541584), in which they requested 180 days of confidentiality on several documents including user manual updates (which tend to be car manuals based on previous FCC applications), internal and external photos of the HD radar, and test set-up photos. This type of confidentiality request isn't that out of the ordinary for things they will be putting into the cars soon. The confidentiality of these expires on December 4th, 2022 and will be released at that time.

Just one month ago the Tesla HD radar leaked into the Model X parts manual and has since been removed. The timing of a brand new part accidentally leaking into the EPC just a month before they start producing the next model year is a bit suspicious on its own.

About a week later Elon tweeted about how "Replacement cameras will be available early next month" for older S/X cars waiting on them. A curious statement unless there was a camera shortage that we didn't know about and he was expecting a shipment. The far more likely reason for this now is he knew they would have extra HW2.5 cameras available for retrofits because they were switching new cars over to new model repeater cameras. This doesn't have anything to do with HD radar itself, but read on.

Then about a week ago with the USS announcement, Elon has been utterly silent on the topic and not responding to the first thing people noticed: The cameras are different, they appear to have a larger lens, higher FOV, and appear very slightly angled in comparison to the previous cameras. See this twitter thread on the topic.

We have known this from just looking at the Dashcam, but Sandy Munro's team showed there is a decent blind spot directly in front of the front bumper from the cameras that Tesla will have no sensor information about when USS is removed.
View attachment 864870

What if the answer is much simpler than Tesla is letting on and they do not want to talk about the cameras and radar to avoid people rejecting 2022s knowing 2023s have updates to the FSD hardware suite. What if Tesla is introducing the HD radar that Elon said was all that would be relevant less than a year ago? Tesla may not actually be creating a huge blind spot in front of the bumper if, in fact the HD radar is included with the new models but they aren't willing to publicly disclose it yet. They would get sensor information from that radar about objects right in front of the bumper.

As of right now the idea that the car is losing USS in 2023 models is a driver for people to want their 2022 cars. This isn't the first time this happened, last year Tesla was fairly quiet about the AMD MCUs going into 3/Y until customers started noticing it, and that was far more obvious. They are also probably confident enough that no one is going to go digging that deeply into their brand new 2023 car before they do announce this information. In addition they likely want to avoid too much confusion about the whole "Tesla Vision" topic all at once.

The only real way to see the radar area is to remove the front bumper, and I think it would be super interesting if someone who does get a 2023 model does take a look.
Any radar added to the front of the car will not solve the blind spot issue. The radar would add only a narrow cone of visibility from its location forward and would not cover the bulk of the blind spot. And that's assuming the radar does not gate out reflections from objects close to the car.
 
Any radar added to the front of the car will not solve the blind spot issue. The radar would add only a narrow cone of visibility from its location forward and would not cover the bulk of the blind spot. And that's assuming the radar does not gate out reflections from objects close to the car.
yes. People are over-thinking this blind spot issue anyway.
 
Any radar added to the front of the car will not solve the blind spot issue. The radar would add only a narrow cone of visibility from its location forward and would not cover the bulk of the blind spot. And that's assuming the radar does not gate out reflections from objects close to the car.

I do not pretend to know the intricacies of radar signal interpretation and filtering, but Continental's ARS430 seems to offer scans of near range objects in a very wide area in front of the car. Guesses about the near range FOV and minimum measuring distance of the Tesla HD radar are simply guesses. The ARS-4B from Continental that Tesla uses today and is 7 years old offers near range measurement very similar to the advertised capabilities of the ARS430, which Continental published in this screenshot. I don't think Tesla is going to take that much of a step back when it comes to their 2022 radar.

1666107903736.png
 
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Ultrasound works well when turning into a tight parking space. It's nice to know you have a fairly active display of the # of inches separating your front bumper and the adjacent parked vehicle for example. Not sure which ultrasound-free vehicle camera would be used in that situation, whether the driver would see an accurate distance to impact, or just a loud warning.
 
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If the discussion is about radar replacing the ultrasonics, then it's lidar that should be discussed.
You'd actually be surprised how accurate the "imagery radar" 360 degree 4D Radars are compared to 2010~2021 Continental Radars that Tesla had been using. You can get rid of USS entirely with Arbe's Phoenix ultra high res (front/back) and Lynx lower res radars. Other manufacturers are going to moonshot Tesla's next HW revision to exploit it. They'll also probably keep USS for redundancy if the radar sensors fail.

Essentially, those cars will use cameras to see what color the radar identified objects are, and see if the pedestrians are smiling.

Tesla will be the the low end budget "good'nough" to pass a government regulation sensor suite, or regulated out of the market entirely for false advertising capabilities they continually remove from AP because of safety/liability concerns after finding their "Beta" products get used less than passanger lower lumbar.

 
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You'd actually be surprised how accurate the "imagery radar" 360 degree 4D Radars are compared to 2010~2021 Continental Radars that Tesla had been using. You can get rid of USS entirely with Arbe's Phoenix ultra high res (front/back) and Lynx lower res radars. Other manufacturers are going to moonshot Tesla's next HW revision to exploit it. They'll also probably keep USS for redundancy if the radar sensors fail.

Essentially, those cars will use cameras to see what color the radar identified objects are, and see if the pedestrians are smiling.

Tesla will be the the low end budget "good'nough" to pass a government regulation sensor suite, or regulated out of the market entirely for false advertising capabilities they continually remove from AP because of safety/liability concerns after finding their "Beta" products get used less than passanger lower lumbar.

No doubt, the Tesla radar is going to be on the lower end of the “HD” automotive radars. That said, I don't think Tesla is planning on using it in the same manner that other OEMs would. I feel like they will plan to use it to spot-check vision and increasing confidence levels of detection/distance rather than directly mapping an object from radar, so they don’t necessarily need the capabilities of the Arbe. They will surely use the radar for some far-off and very near (blind spot) detection and other scenarios, I just don’t think it is going to be primary unless it gets a very large radar return that does not correlate to an occupancy network tracked object.

I hope it does work out the way they plan, and that vision augmented by their radar performs as well or better than the primary radar as input method. However, we have all seen the numerous rewrites of the AP suite over the years caused by misjudging the approach to “solving” FSD.

I suspect we may hear some rumblings about all of this tomorrow during the earnings call, which Elon said he would be attending.
 
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You can bet people are salivating to do a full car tear down just for the Youtube views.

I think HD Radar is imminent, but no idea if it'll hit any car before CT which will have a much larger (read lethal) blindspot.

Sadly, I'm losing hope that it will be the Phoenix Arbe radar which has the highest resolution on the market. They are slated to go full production with Veoneer mid-2023.

Chances are, Tesla will cheap out and go for something with 10x less fidelity to chase profit margins instead or safety.
The Arbe radar looks awesome for driving but its specs are +/- 15 degrees in elevation and +/- 50 degrees azimuth. That's fine for looking ahead at a road but of course inadequate to replace ultrasonic parking sensors. That elimination is a BS false economy, and isn't remotely justified by whinging about the difficulty of sensor fusion.

 
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The Arbe radar looks awesome for driving but its specs are +/- 15 degrees in elevation and +/- 50 degrees azimuth. That's fine for looking ahead at a road but of course inadequate to replace ultrasonic parking sensors. That elimination is a BS false economy, and isn't remotely justified by whinging about the difficulty of sensor fusion.

+/-15 degrees from the front and back bumper areas 1.5~3 feet above the ground and much lower to the ground than Tesla's entire camera system. That gives the bumper located radar:

1.5 ft = <5" blindspot
3ft = <10" blindspot

It would already sense areas passively (car not moving) that the Tesla cameras cant see at all.

Plus blind spot and cross traffic detection from all corners (4~5x Lynx corner radars).

Arbe is also doing active Freespace Mapping (stationary and moving). So it will have the potential of out performing the TV occupancy mapping with vision only.
 
Seems likely, but I'm not convinced yet. There are a few things speaking against HD radar:

1. Take a look at FSD beta as it drives and compare its visualization to the real world. You will probably see that when FSD beta makes an error, it is typically not due to a lack of information. Rather, it is due to it is judgement based on what is already known.

2. Consider the possibility that Tesla planned for HD radar to be complementary to SDD, and that both of these were dropped when the occupancy network made faster progress than expected.

3. SDD function is being replaced with cameras for the rest of the car perimeter. If the goal was to get rid of the blind spot at the front bumper, it seems easier and much much cheaper to just put a little camera there. Like this:
1666188408348.png