All Amazon needs to be is a guaranteed customer
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Tesla ranks 2nd worst in Consumer reports reliability survey
- Thread starter stcptl
- Start date
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
But hey, Alexa will be listening to your conversations as you drive so she can order more stuff for you!
@daniel is right - Rivian at this point is little more than a pig and a poke, and may be more pig. Tesla has had some issues getting its manufacturing lines up and with extraordinary growth, but hey have also produced some great cars and pushed the envelope in the EV market. Even if they are suffering some QC issues right now, I do have hope that they will improve.
Rivian is brand new and has yet to produce anything more than a prototype. They have no history to go by and we have no idea if they'll even be around in 2 years. Tesla has actually been around for 18 years at this point (and Ford for 100) there's never a guarantee, but I'd bet on Ford or Tesla before Rivian.
Kind of ugly to insult the intelligence of those who question CR's reliability ratings.
Especially when:
1) They admit that they pad their surveys with reports from other years and models...sometimes
2) They neglect to say if and when they do this for a particular rating, or say how many responses they got (Tyranny of small numbers? Why not publish your dataset?)
3) They conflate quality and what most of us think of when we say "reliable"
4) There is a polar opposite disconnect between satisfaction scores and reliability scores you have to stand on your head to explain.
5) They claim independence and yet one of their biggest (if not the biggest) donors is a foundation led by one of Tesla's main competitors that stands to benefit from downgrading their reliability.
Thoughtful people can be bothered by these things, especially by #4 in my case. I'm not saying Tesla doesn't have problems. They absolutely do. But CR has some real credibility issues with their survey methodology. Instead of poo-pooing people with concerns about it, how about taking a listen?
It isn't just about the recommended list, it's about not disclosing known issues either because they don't know about them, are encouraged not to, or the data collected by mostly non-car people are not detailed, mostly subjective and / or inaccurate.
Nope, not impossible. Multiple me-too posts usually mean an issue exists. A few me-too posts mean the problem isn't that widespread. Then the year affected can usually be determined, or maybe it's all of them. Yes, forums are where people come to post their problems which is why it's an invaluable source for problem info. A lot of what's here will never end up on CR or JD Power because they can't possibly ask all the right questions.
Yes, I've scoured the Ford forums for years specifically the Mustang GT as I was close to purchasing one back in 2018. Luckily, I did the research or I would have likely ended up with a car with a troublesome engine and tranny which became widespread.
Car and Driver just did a review of the Mach-E GT and trashed it because of the poor performance. This was known right at the time of they were getting into the hands of owners. And all this time the publishers like Edmunds and Car and Driver, etc. were all gushing over it when the Mach-E forums owners already knew what was coming. Also, thermal issues were known way before the mags started reporting it.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
And if you critically evaluate each or your concerns you see that there’s a valid explanation.
- Yes - when a model is new and they don’t have a long enough history they will use other cars from the same manufacturer to predict. They are clear about this and only do so until a model has a track record to go off of. They also will rate a brand as reliable or unreliable as a whole and still say there are unreliable or reliable models under that brand. Isn’t that pretty much what any rational person would do?
- No one publishes their data set; I’m not sure why people expect CR to do it.
- If you actually take the time to read their full report, they do provide a fair amount of detail about how they weigh the different areas as well as which areas are problematic. Right underneath the headline they say “Models with the greatest risk of problems.” When they list the Model Y, they say “Trouble spots: Body hardware, paint & trim, climate system, noises & leaks.” If you go to the article about the Model Y, they list each individual area and how it fared. Here they actually show Tesla improving in each area between 2020 and 2021 and give it a better rating in 2021 than in 2020. I’m not sure how much clearer they could be. Regardless, reliability and quality are close to the same thing in the first year but diverge after that.
- It’s already been pointed out and discussed in this thread that satisfaction and reliability are completely separate concepts. Satisfaction is a qualitative, subjective opinion, essentially “do you like the car and would you buy it again?“ whereas reliability is a quantitative evaluation of the number of problems and comparison with other makes and models of the same age. While they tend to track, there is nothing that says they need to. Look at this forum - people love their Teslas, even if they have some issues.
- I agree that it’s reasonable to question the fact that the Ford Foundation donates to Consumer Reports. But the Ford Foundation is not “led by one of Tesla’s main competitors.” The foundation is independent and has been for 50 years. Henry Ford III is not an officer, he’s on the board of trustees and only one of 14, there’s a signficant difference. He’s not even the president of the trustees. At best he would have a limited say or impact. But beyond that, look at the evidence. If you look at CR’s rating history, they have regularly been rather unkind to Ford. HIstorically, there’s no evidence that CR has favored Ford; quite the opposite - they have favored other Ford competitors on a very regular basis.
I have no problem with people questioning CR - what makes me question people’s intelligence is how they “stand on their head” to ignore them, say they are ‘biased’ or have some ant-Tesla agenda when there really isn’t any evidence of this. As others have pointed out, There are tons of posts on this forum about the very same issues that CR says they have and CR has been giving cars poor reliability ratings long before Tesla existed. The only real evidence I see that they are ’anti Tesla’ is the fact that they gave Tesla a poor rating.
And this is not useful to anyone about to purchase a car. So Joe Schmoe chooses a car based on this rating and within 6 months to a year starts having issues. How did they help?
Given the type of data collected, publishing their data set would make their conclusions more meaningful. Whether others publish theirs is irrelevant.
Body hardware? What body part specifically. Climate system? What is the actual issue with the climate system? It could be something as simple as being difficult to use. Noises and leaks? Where are the noises coming from? Are they interior, exterior? Where are the leaks? What is leaking? Are the leaks from rain? Battery coolant? Yes, those things matter. A noise from the suspension is more concerning than a squeak from the dashboard for example.
All Trustees don't give the same amount. For all we know Ford could be the biggest contributor. As far as historically having no evidence they favor Ford, I'd have to verify that myself which I'm not going to waste any time on.
Also, the cars Ford would be interested in pumping up ratings wise, would be their EVs, and heavy sellers, or the new models they expect high sales with.
I ignore them because their conclusions are misleading as I said before. Here's their recent recommended list:
This year 22 models have improved their reliability to average or better. This, coupled with the accompanying improvement in their Overall Score, allows them to be recommended for the 2022 model year. They are the Acura MDX, Acura RDX, Acura TLX, Audi Q7, BMW X3, Chevrolet Blazer, Chevrolet TrailBlazer, Chevrolet Traverse, Ford Bronco Sport, Ford Mustang Mach-E, Ford Ranger, Genesis G70, Honda Odyssey, Honda Passport, Infiniti QX50, Kia Niro EV, Nissan Rogue Sport, Ram 1500, Volkswagen Atlas, Volkswagen Atlas Cross Sport, Volkswagen Jetta, and Volvo XC60.
Source: 12 Cars Lose Consumer Reports' Recommendation Due to Reliability Issues
If they could be so wrong about the Mustang Mach-E, what else are they wrong about? Someone can correct me, but is the Ford Bronco Sport even a full year in existence yet? The Mach-E isn't, yet according to them they 'improved' their reliability to average or better. Most readers would just buy that at face value even though we know it's BS.
And you still ask why they're ignored?
Do they get everything wrong? No, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Except on the forum the reader would know exactly what part is problematic and can make a more informed decision. They'll also see that the more serious issues are rare and that the car is safe to purchase.
Last edited:
That’s why it’s useful to have the backing of Amazon’s deep pockets
I didn't realize that Amazon was backing Rivian. That's certainly helps Rivian if true. (Are they actually providing investment money, or did they just agree to buy a lot of vehicles if they're ever built?)
The expression is "A pig in a poke." Not "Pig and a poke." A Poke is a small bag, usually leather, used as a coin purse or to hold other small items in ancient times. A pig will not fit in a poke. So if somebody says "There's a pig in this poke" they're lying. When you call something a pig in a poke you're saying it doesn't exist. Or that the claim being made is ridiculous.
In general, TMC is a really great place to get information about Tesla and its products. It is not a great place to get an overall view of Tesla owners, since the number of registered members is a tiny proportion of all Tesla owners, and the number of active posters is probably a very small proportion of registered members. With any forum, a lot of people register and then drift away. Most forums do not remove inactive members.
John5520 responded well, but just let me ask you a couple of questions.
Why is it OK with you that they use other models and years to assess reliability? Would it be fair to predict rust problems with Toyotas based on the experience I had on my 1970 LandCruiser? You do not know what sources they used to generate these ratings any more than I do.
"No one publishes their data," so that means the ratings they generate are meaningful? Is that what you are saying? It wouldn't matter to you if they only surveyed one person to come up with their information? Apparently, you have a low bar. I happen to care about such things, having worked in medical quality for over 20 years. Ratings should be evidence based and subject to scientific rigor, or they should be regarded with a jaundiced eye.
I did read the full report. Thanks for assuming I did not. They described their methodology in broad terms and the devil is always in the details which they omitted despite your elaborate defense.
It hasn't been established at all that satisfaction and reliability have nothing in common. Please don't ask me to believe you think that. I certainly would not be completely satisfied with an unreliable car, and I doubt that I know anyone who would be. Are you trolling?
"Historically, there’s no evidence that CR has favored Ford;", well, as john explained, except maybe now there is "evidence." Not proof, but why would anyone think they have enough MachE data to warrant an improving reliability rating, when most of us can count on one hand the number we have seen?
I think that what many people here have said is that CR ratings, from a SURVEY with a blinded database, are irrelevant. Which is not to say that everything CR does is wrong or bad. But in my view this particular bit of information should be hugely discounted, rather than given a lot of press attention. I'd rather read about the real-life experiences of owners on a forum like this and talk to friends who own Teslas rather than pay attention to CR surveys.
Since the subject of the Ford Foundation has popped up (and I apologize wholeheartedly if there is a no politics rule here)
This is a quote from NGO Monitor
Would I trust them to recommend me a good car? Would I hell
This is a quote from NGO Monitor
- As a result of the Durban conference, in October 2003, Congressmen Jerrold Nadler and Rick Santorum, a member of the Senate Finance Committee, launched a campaign to investigate the Ford Foundation’s funding of anti-Semitic and highly political anti-Israel NGOs. As part of the campaign, twenty members of Congress sent a letter to Ford Foundation President Susan Berresford asking her to “cease funding subversive groups.” In response, Berresford initiated a review in December 2003 and pledged that Ford would act to ensure that funds no longer went to “groups that promote or condone bigotry or violence, or that challenge the very existence of legitimate, sovereign states like Israel.
Would I trust them to recommend me a good car? Would I hell
Hear, hear. I fully agree. My son-in-law had to replace the transmission in his 3 year old Ford.
Then there's also JD rankings if you don't believe CR.
Tesla ranks dead last in annual quality survey
Really? If mine were totaled I'd buy another in a heartbeat. Best car I've ever owned. The Roadster was more fun to drive, but way less practical and not comfortable at all. The Prius and the Civic were both more reliable, but they burned gas and didn't have autopilot. And neither was as comfortable.
Sorry to hear that. You are certainly appear to be in the minority.
No matter how good something is, can probably always find at least one person that doesn’t like it.
Tesla Model 3 Owners Are Happiest With Their Cars ... At All Ages â 70 Reasons Why - CleanTechnica
Earlier this year, Consumer Reports published its annual report on vehicle owner satisfaction. Once again, the report, which is based on extensive surveys of vehicle owners, found that Tesla owners are the happiest with their cars. Now they've split the ranking up by age.
cleantechnica.com
Actually, the Model is a vehicle they do recommend. As per them, it is the most reliable Tesla.
At last a proper scientific poll that we can all agree with (70 reasons why we prefer your poll...)Sorry to hear that. You are certainly appear to be in the minority.
No matter how good something is, can probably always find at least one person that doesn’t like it.
Tesla Model 3 Owners Are Happiest With Their Cars ... At All Ages â 70 Reasons Why - CleanTechnica
Earlier this year, Consumer Reports published its annual report on vehicle owner satisfaction. Once again, the report, which is based on extensive surveys of vehicle owners, found that Tesla owners are the happiest with their cars. Now they've split the ranking up by age.
Didn't have time to read the whole thing yet. Thanks for posting, though. This from the second paragraph in the article you linked:
It was the first time Tesla was profiled for the survey. Even with the poor ranking, J.D. Power notes that it's not an official ranking because the company doesn't meet all the criteria to be measured.
And yet. They published it anyway.
How many people will see that?And, it's an initial quality survey, and not a "reliability" survey.
But it's still a survey, subject to all of the potential issues brought up previously for CR.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
The JD survey is even less applicable to Tesla than CR, and that is saying something.
Tesla routinely relies on OTA updates, and some post delivery service, to bring the cars up to their new car standard. A new ICE could be compared to a 6 month Tesla.
There is a trade-off where Tesla is concerned, but none of the surveys have figured it out yet: Tesla may use the OTA to sell not quite polished product, but in return supplies a lifetime of free improvements.
Tesla routinely relies on OTA updates, and some post delivery service, to bring the cars up to their new car standard. A new ICE could be compared to a 6 month Tesla.
There is a trade-off where Tesla is concerned, but none of the surveys have figured it out yet: Tesla may use the OTA to sell not quite polished product, but in return supplies a lifetime of free improvements.
Similar threads
