You are correct of course ... but ... the welcome early initiatives from Nissan and Renault did not have any significant impact on the readiness of other manufacturers to develop their own EVs as far as I know. Tesla transformed the image and the reality of electric vehicles. It comes as a great surprise to many members of the public that electric cars have been available to buy in the UK for 10 years or more. The Model S and Model X demonstrated that an EV can be a desirable high performance luxury aspirational vehicle rather than just a worthy choice made by people with a strong environmental interest. The general awareness of the exceptional performance of some Teslas caught the imagination of young people when videos spread on the internet. When the Model 3 was first announced, initially described as an "affordable"(!) option, the rest of the industry really took notice. By the time it reached the UK there was already wide awareness, particularly amongst youngsters, and a pent up demand from early adopters who were ready to take the plunge. No traditional marketing yet Tesla could sell everything they could make! That was the clincher that overcame the hesitancy of mainstream manufacturers.
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Tesla readies revamped Model 3
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EVer Hopeful
Active Member
ok, fair point. You've got me on that one
Having said that, was Nissan really serious about EVs when they built the Leaf? Or were they just hedging a little in case the industry went that way?
Honda had an Electric Fit, but it was only sold in certain markets and had a 40 mile range, so was pretty useless really. At least Nissan made an electric vehicle, rather than what Honda did which was to drop an electric power plant into an existing vehicle
Personally I'd say to be an EV, a vehicle should be only available as electric, so something like the Ioniq5 would count, but not the Kona
The leaf was a pretty decent car for its time, they weren't just playing at it. Nissan has fallen behind and is rarely mentioned here now because I think Ghosn was the one driving the EV push and he's gone..
Nissan put money into the Electric Highway (their logo was many of on the old DBT rapids they had), they had specific EV trained advisers on their showrooms and were the first to start bundling discounts on home chargers.
In 2010 nobody was doing anything like it. Apparently the batteries were the majority of the sticker price back then.. The Leaf was how I learned EVs existed and started looking at them, although it took me a while to get one I still have fond memories of my 30kw.
Nissan put money into the Electric Highway (their logo was many of on the old DBT rapids they had), they had specific EV trained advisers on their showrooms and were the first to start bundling discounts on home chargers.
In 2010 nobody was doing anything like it. Apparently the batteries were the majority of the sticker price back then.. The Leaf was how I learned EVs existed and started looking at them, although it took me a while to get one I still have fond memories of my 30kw.
SalisburySam
Active Member
Still have my 2012 Nissan LEAF, the 2nd one imported into the state of my residence at the time. I ordered it with a $99 deposit in 2010 and my 2012 was delivered in February 2012. Still a wonderful package today but the range is a pathetic 30 miles or so, down from about 74 new. The 24kWh battery deteriorated quickly though not quickly enough for me to be able to take advantage of Nissan’s capacity warranties. My SL stickered at $40k in February 2012 and was a huge change from driving ICE vehicles with its focus on charging and range. At the time there were no L3 chargers at all in most states, and few L2s outside of Nissan dealerships. Nissan made it almost mandatory that owners install their recommended L2 devices at home, and the EVSE I installed then I still use today for the LEAF, our Model 3, and our Ioniq5. Today my LEAF has about 17,000 miles and is mostly just a very, very comfortable golf cart given its range, and used exclusively for in-town errands. I expect to donate it by year-end.
In my opinion, Nissan could have been a huge EV manufacturing leader but it pissed away its early-mover advantage by taking years to upgrade the battery and then only incrementally to 30kWh, then years later to 42kWh, then more years to 62kWh. And none had any battery management system other than ambient air cooling with no heating, possibly why the pricing remained below $40k for most models.
Where Nissan excelled, in my opinion again, is by developing and delivering an EV that drove like an ICE. No fancy automation other than in-car navigation, although my SL had typical bells and whistles like heated seats front and back, heated steering wheel, USB-A connection, a small solar panel to trickle charge the 12v battery, power windows, electronic emergency brake, SiriusXM, both L2 and CHAdeMO L3 charging, factory-installed Homelink controls, and remote HVAC controls. On the other hand, it only has manual seats, manual hatchback, no frunk, cloth seating made from recycled plastic bottles (very comfortable by the way and easy to keep clean), and very limited voice command. Transition from an ICE was as easy as a manufacturer could have made it except for range adjustments. Cruise control was the dumb variety, auto wipers used the windshield sensor commonplace then and now, and the only new automation was to manage the charging and displays. This was an electrified ICE vehicle and I think it could have been very much more successful had Nissan been serious about battery longevity, chemistry, and cooling/heating.
Oh what could have been…maybe.
In my opinion, Nissan could have been a huge EV manufacturing leader but it pissed away its early-mover advantage by taking years to upgrade the battery and then only incrementally to 30kWh, then years later to 42kWh, then more years to 62kWh. And none had any battery management system other than ambient air cooling with no heating, possibly why the pricing remained below $40k for most models.
Where Nissan excelled, in my opinion again, is by developing and delivering an EV that drove like an ICE. No fancy automation other than in-car navigation, although my SL had typical bells and whistles like heated seats front and back, heated steering wheel, USB-A connection, a small solar panel to trickle charge the 12v battery, power windows, electronic emergency brake, SiriusXM, both L2 and CHAdeMO L3 charging, factory-installed Homelink controls, and remote HVAC controls. On the other hand, it only has manual seats, manual hatchback, no frunk, cloth seating made from recycled plastic bottles (very comfortable by the way and easy to keep clean), and very limited voice command. Transition from an ICE was as easy as a manufacturer could have made it except for range adjustments. Cruise control was the dumb variety, auto wipers used the windshield sensor commonplace then and now, and the only new automation was to manage the charging and displays. This was an electrified ICE vehicle and I think it could have been very much more successful had Nissan been serious about battery longevity, chemistry, and cooling/heating.
Oh what could have been…maybe.
If you really want to be pedantic then EVs have been around since 1897 ish, but the technology wasn't available to make a really useful car.
Sure, we had those first few modern vehicle manufacturers dipping their toes into the EV development like the Prius - the target of much derision and usually bought by environmental martinets or those who wanted to virtue signal or offset the fact they usually drove a 6 litre V8 - but they were absolutely useless as a car a family or enthusiast would buy - and fugly too.
Other manufacturers simply developed some lame excuse of an electric vehicle to cheat governments emissions outputs as they really focused on big dirty ice - it was a case of the money people manipulating what they did to ensure their revenues continued.
Some EVs resulting from this weren't terrible but they weren't particularly good either.
It is a fact - If Tesla had not produced the first roadster and then the Model S other vehicle manufacturers would not have developed an EV at all, indeed initially they all had their fingers crossed Tesla would go bust - but when they saw their share of the market starting to dwindle, the proliferation of Tesla sales and the model 3 launched - they then started to take it all a bit more seriously. Tesla were outperforming ICE in every respect.
But its all-good news now for the public - all manufacturers are very focused on developing a new range of vehicles and Tesla are focused on what they can remove and penny pinch - so perhaps Tesla will be eased out as a manufacturer in the long term - a victim of their own success and greed.
Sure, we had those first few modern vehicle manufacturers dipping their toes into the EV development like the Prius - the target of much derision and usually bought by environmental martinets or those who wanted to virtue signal or offset the fact they usually drove a 6 litre V8 - but they were absolutely useless as a car a family or enthusiast would buy - and fugly too.
Other manufacturers simply developed some lame excuse of an electric vehicle to cheat governments emissions outputs as they really focused on big dirty ice - it was a case of the money people manipulating what they did to ensure their revenues continued.
Some EVs resulting from this weren't terrible but they weren't particularly good either.
It is a fact - If Tesla had not produced the first roadster and then the Model S other vehicle manufacturers would not have developed an EV at all, indeed initially they all had their fingers crossed Tesla would go bust - but when they saw their share of the market starting to dwindle, the proliferation of Tesla sales and the model 3 launched - they then started to take it all a bit more seriously. Tesla were outperforming ICE in every respect.
But its all-good news now for the public - all manufacturers are very focused on developing a new range of vehicles and Tesla are focused on what they can remove and penny pinch - so perhaps Tesla will be eased out as a manufacturer in the long term - a victim of their own success and greed.
Well I answered that question in my post - there wasn’t much competition when I bought my M3. Now there is lots of fantastic competition. I don’t regret buying my M3, and I can say I’ve been there and done that. But now I want to move on to something better. For a £60k+ car there is nothing that feels “premium” about the M3P. The interior is spartan (cheap) and is going to be more so, it’s horribly noisy and unrefined at motorway speeds and much of even the basic tech doesn’t work.
I’m going to enjoy researching and choosing my next car.
Wow, you must be desperate to get rid! (Definitely don't use the above wording in your advert
) At least I paid £20,000 less for my M3 than that £60,000 for a new Performance ... and it's interior is a really pleasant place being open, uncluttered, comfortable and relaxing. No interior flaws after more than 3 years use. My SR+ remains gloriously smooth at motorway speeds and is quiet unless on dodgy surfaces. No wind noise at legal speeds. I'm sure you can find even quieter cars but "horribly noisy" just doesn't compute from my own experience. In the "basic tech" department I find that wiper performance at night could be improved further but that's about it. The advanced tech (as against the basic tech) seems to shift around in terms of its capabilities. I love the app access to the car and the ease of remote change to charge settings, heating etc. (Every time time another EV user has used our charger (except for Tesla owners) I am surprised at the additional faff they seem to have just setting up their car to charge... on their fiddly car screen because their app doesn't seem to do it reliably if at all.) I'm not a regular user of Autopilot and haven't paid for EAP or FSD so these aspects are more of a curiosity than something I depend on. If I had paid upfront for FSD I think I would be voicing dissatisfaction on the basis of what I have experienced to date.
Zilla91
Active Member
I hate to break it to you, but none of those things you describe are revolutionary in this day and age. Literally every new EV has that functionality, even a lowly MG.
I have to "break it to you" that I wasn't speculating ... anyway, where did I say this was revolutionary? I was describing what has actually happened with real EVs! Sometimes cars have features that don't work very well or intuitively. We describe such things when its Tesla but we assume that every other car brand just works perfectly "as described". A friend with an Eniro is never confident that the car will start charging when it's supposed to he says he hasn't worked out yet (after owning the car for a year and a half) ... eniro app kept losing connection with the car ... another visitor with an Audi etron simpy failed to set a timed charge at all so I set it on my Zappi.
Zilla91
Active Member
That’s two anecdotes, one about someone who doesn’t know how to work an app and another who had a single charge that failed.
Wow, you must be desperate to get rid! (Definitely don't use the above wording in your advert
no rattles? the rattles in my 3mo M3LR are driving me insane
I know some cars have had to deal with rattles but mine is rattle free. I can understand that would be a real pain if they can't be tracked down. Once in a blue moon there's a sound from the side window (more of a tick than a rattle) but some Gummi Pfledge on the seals seems to deal with that. At one point I noticed a creak from the front seats but the adjustment rails just needed a smear of grease and that has never recurred. I was under the impression that the Chinese built cars had dealt with this variation in quality that seemed to be a feature of Fremont cars (mine is a Fremont car).
No, my MIC model 3 keeps getting worse. I'm concerned I got a lemon because of the Chinese lockdowns earlier in the year
2 service appointments and they say fixed but not really, they all come back with a vengeance, including new ones.
It’s amazing how different people have different experiences of what is essentially the same car. You honestly can’t hear ANY wind noise at 70mph? I find I can hear tyre noise from 15mph and wind noise at 40mph. At 70mph wind and tyre noise is so intrusive it requires a significant boost in volume to listen to music. Comparing it to my late 2018 model A6 is like comparing chalk and cheese in terms of noise, comfort and refinement. The A6 is in a completely different league. But then the Germans know how to put cars together properly.Wow, you must be desperate to get rid! (Definitely don't use the above wording in your advert
My M3 also has no interior flaws after more than three years, but I can say the same about every car I’ve owned over the last 40 years.
I’m another person who finds the interior of the M3 to be too spartan. Everything seems to be about saving money. A decent binnacle display, a HUD and a few physical buttons for HVAC are a must in my next car. I’m more and more drawn to the EV6 GT. I’ve just heard a reviewer on Fully Charged say it’s (in his opinion) “the most broadly talented electric car on sale right now” and ”we all know when it comes to electric vehicles right now the Koreans are a cut above the rest”. That will have the Tesla fanboys spitting feathers
I do find that tyre noise is hugely dependant on the road surface. I'm sure that the damping of road noise when on rough surfaced roads could be improved ... and that there are other cars that do a better job in that area. When on smooth roads I find the car is very quiet. Wind noise comes in nearer 90 but not at 70 (I will have to pay attention more but it has not been enough to have made me think it's in any way noisy.) Other people have posted about wind noise and in some cases have tracked down the cause e.g. the small gap in the trim near where the mirror(s) attach. Tiny things seem to make a difference. (I once had a car with a high pitched whistle that was never solved ... I put masking tape over every join on the outside of the car and it made not a jot of difference!)
I suspect this comment won't age well. The so called competition is getting slightly better I admit, but aside from the extra bling factor, non come close when it comes to drive train efficiency, technology and charging reliability. I'm not even sure any of this so called competition actually make a single cent profit on any of their electric offerings.
I disagree entirely. Much of the competition is coming on in leaps and bounds and there are some absolutely fantastic EVs out there. To say Tesla has the best technology is laughable. I can only presume you haven’t been keeping tabs on what’s happening with the completion over the last couple of years. And there will be LOTS of fantastic EVs coming out over the next couple of years as well.
EVer Hopeful
Active Member
Is it a sort of "Pee pah pee pah" sound?
I've noticed a huge increase in noise when I open the double pane window - or rather I suppose that they keep out a lot of noise
Comment by Artiste above:
I’m more and more drawn to the EV6 GT. I’ve just heard a reviewer on Fully Charged say it’s (in his opinion) “the most broadly talented electric car on sale right now” and ”we all know when it comes to electric vehicles right now the Koreans are a cut above the rest”. That will have the Tesla fanboys spitting feathers
Jason71
Well-Known Member
I am not familiar with the MG app but comparing the Tesla app to the my parents Kia Soul 2020 app is like comparing a 2013 iphone to a 2013 android as in
The kia app technically has more functionality but actually understanding it and getting it to work reliably is another matter.
I still hate the fact that I cannot schedule both charge start and stop times at once in the Tesla app but I would still not swap it for the Kia one for any price.
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