Tesla refusing to show me my own logs?

[josephjah]

Hello everyone,

I'm currently dealing with several issues with my 2018 Model S which is forcing me to open a lemon law claim. To substantiate one of my claims (that the car is randomly braking on the interstate) I would like to see my car's logs with my own eyes. After my latest interactions with my service center I don't think I can trust them any longer (also for additional reasons not listed here), they refuse to show me anything. The tech that I've been dealing with is nearly combative when they should be supportive of my inquiries. This is deeply worrying to me as I no longer feel safe in my vehicle.

I would rather not have to subpoena these logs and go through a drawn out legal process so I was wondering if there was any other possible avenue. Anything I can do that won't void my warranty or anyone that I can speak to.

To me, it seems straightforward: I bought the hardware. The hardware performs a logging task. Therefore the log should belong to me. Especially when the performance/safety/quality of the car is in question.

So far dealing with Tesla and owning this car has been a huge nightmare which is sad because I was really excited and wanted to love this car at first.

Any information would be helpful! Thanks in advance.

 

[PhilDavid]

Would it not be a lot less hassle for you to get a dash cam and document what you are claiming?

I don't think Tesla is doing anything out of the ordinary here. Try getting the internal car logs from any other car manufacturer. Yes, even ICE cars record a log of all actions such as braking to an internal black box but you'd literally need a subpoena to get that information.

Like I said if you have an issue with persistent erratic behavior, get a dash cam to document what you are complaining about.

I also don't think you will succeed using Autopilot braking to lemon your car. You'd be far more productive if you work with them to find a solution rather than make demands they are unable to honor.

 

[Brettski]

Lemon law / buybacks are based on multiple attempts at repair which fail to resolve the problem -as well as the car being out of service for a certain amount of time. (I went through this successfully and easily with a BMW). Have you had a series of service appointments? How many days has your car been in service for this problem? Maybe you have a great case........

On the other hand, I as an owner don’t necessarily agree that I’m entitled to my car’s logs on demand (which sounds like what you’ve done); as you say you “bought the hardware”, but you didn’t buy Tesla’s infrastructure which receives and archives those logs. I’m really not sure they belong to you. Also, I’m sure they could be easily misconstrued. Did you tell the service center you’re planning to sue? That may not have helped your cause either......

Best of luck.

 

[ewoodrick]

I'll agree with Brettski and add that the AutoPilot is in preview and that's going to get them out of any liability. The closest you will probably get is the lawsuit that was settled earlier this year.

And as soon as they release the update, that may fix the issues. Because if you aren't aware of it, you aren't the only one that it is happening to. If you don't like it, the solution is easy, don't engage it.

 

[Tam]

...I bought the hardware....

Tesla would deny an investigation of a summon that crashes into a garage. It won't comply with an owner's request for a car log even if the whole garage is demolished because that is a known risk in accepting an imperfect summon feature.

It's unproductive to do something that is known and expected over and over again!

Owner's acceptance to use Driver Assistance feature is conditional as spelled out by its manual. Owner should not rely on it and should intervene at any time. It discloses that "Model S to brake when not required or when you are not expecting it."

It's just like complaining that this lemonade tastes like lemon!


However, if you still want to fight this, you should get a dash cam as suggested by @PhilDavid .

You can also contact one of Do-It-Yourself experts here in the forum who can retrieve your car log for you or you can learn doing that yourself.

 

[josephjah]

Thanks everyone. To clarify, our lemon complaint is based on much more than this specific issue. This is just the latest in a saga. And no I have not threatened legal action at this stage, I'm merely exploring options. But it sounds like no one has had any success obtaining these logs.

Would it not be a lot less hassle for you to get a dash cam and document what you are claiming?

While I like the idea, I'm not sure it would be much help. My concern is that even if I have the footage it wouldn't convey any information that the service/engineering team doesn't already see. I might get one anyway.

but you didn’t buy Tesla’s infrastructure which receives and archives those logs. I’m really not sure they belong to you. Also, I’m sure they could be easily misconstrued.

You're right that I didn't purchase the infrastructure to go along with the car. So I was wondering if there was anything I can do without voiding my warranty (such as manually downloading past logs).

 

[Tam]

...manually downloading past logs...

Totally legal to get a Tesla Event Data Recorder on your own. You can buy a genuine kit sold by Tesla:

Event Data Recorder

There are experts in this forum who can retrieve your car log too.

 

[appleguru]

Totally legal to get a Tesla Event Data Recorder on your own. You can buy a genuine kit sold by Tesla:

Event Data Recorder

There are experts in this forum who can retrieve your car log too.

The EDR data is completely useless unless your vehicle is in a crash. There is nothing interesting there during normal operation. See a sample of the (useless) normal data from my post here: Tesla releases new tool for people to retrieve ‘blackbox data’ after a crash

And I too have asked Tesla for copies of my log files (as well as copies of the data that we are sharing with them, like the short video clips they ask for to 'improve the product') and have so far had zero luck getting anything useful that way.

Maybe someday when they actually release a customer facing version of toolbox we'll be able to look at useful logging without resorting to hacking the car....

One thing you can do is log the raw CAN bus data. That + dash cam footage + timestamps will probably give you most of what you are looking for.

 

[Tam]

...no one has had any success obtaining these logs...

Only true if owners request it from Tesla but not true if owners do it on their own or get one of the experts in this forum.

The problem that is presented in this thread is like this scenario:

I like sugar so I ordered a diet soda and I expect it should have sugar because I paid good money for the sugar.

I then read the ingredient label that it has no sugar. No sugar at all!

So, I would want to send the sample to the lab to prove that this diet soda has no sugar at all which is the opposite of what I expected to buy!

Good luck for suing a diet soda that has no sugar!

 

[Cirrus MS100D]

How does the car randomly brake on the interstate? Without you pressing the brakes?

Or are you using TACC or TACC + AutoSteer?

 

[ucmndd]

Or are you using TACC or TACC + AutoSteer?

Seems obvious he is.

 

[josephjah]

The EDR data is completely useless unless your vehicle is in a crash. There is nothing interesting there during normal operation. See a sample of the (useless) normal data from my post here: Tesla releases new tool for people to retrieve ‘blackbox data’ after a crash

And I too have asked Tesla for copies of my log files (as well as copies of the data that we are sharing with them, like the short video clips they ask for to 'improve the product') and have so far had zero luck getting anything useful that way.

Maybe someday when they actually release a customer facing version of toolbox we'll be able to look at useful logging without resorting to hacking the car....

One thing you can do is log the raw CAN bus data. That + dash cam footage + timestamps will probably give you most of what you are looking for.

Thanks, this is insightful.

Only true if owners request it from Tesla but not true if owners do it on their own or get one of the experts in this forum.

The problem that is presented in this thread is like this scenario:

I like sugar so I ordered a diet soda and I expect it should have sugar because I paid good money for the sugar.

I then read the ingredient label that it has no sugar. No sugar at all!

So, I would want to send the sample to the lab to prove that this diet soda has no sugar at all which is the opposite of what I expected to buy!

Good luck for suing a diet soda that has no sugar!

Thanks for your replies, but correct me if I'm wrong: If my car is randomly braking on the interstate and is creating situations that are unsafe for myself and other drivers is this not a safety issue worthy of legal action? Especially if it does end up causing an accident? But to reiterate this is not the primary reason for me entertaining the idea of a lemon law complaint but I figured I'd limit the scope of this thread to just this issue.

How does the car randomly brake on the interstate? Without you pressing the brakes?

Or are you using TACC or TACC + AutoSteer?

Autopilot, which I believe is TACC + AutoSteer?

 

[jeffro01]

Classic case of RTFM... The OP claims other issues but only seems to want to talk about phantom breaking... No way in hell that's going to qualify for the lemon law... Go ahead, pay for an attorney to tell you the same thing...

Jeff

 

[josephjah]

Classic case of RTFM... The OP claims other issues but only seems to want to talk about phantom breaking... No way in hell that's going to qualify for the lemon law... Go ahead, pay for an attorney to tell you the same thing...

Jeff

I'm sorry you feel this way but I've specifically left out other issues to limit the scope of this thread (as previously stated). I don't understand why there's such vitriol projected from some members of this community. The truth is that some people are receiving vehicles with more issues than others.

 

[jeffro01]

I'm sorry you feel this way but I've specifically left out other issues to limit the scope of this thread (as previously stated). I don't understand why there's such vitriol projected from some members of this community. The truth is that some people are receiving vehicles with more issues than others.

Then tell us what they are... Tesla isn't going to give you the logs without a fight, it's really that simple. There are no tricks or whatever out there. Some members here have the skills needed to hack your car to get those logs, but otherwise, it's subpoena time...

Jeff

 

[josephjah]

Then tell us what they are... Tesla isn't going to give you the logs without a fight, it's really that simple. There are no tricks or whatever out there. Some members here have the skills needed to hack your car to get those logs, but otherwise, it's subpoena time...

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff.

 

[drklain]

Bottom line (and people keep forgetting this) is that Tesla has publicly stated that Autopilot software is not complete nor completely tested and has not been released. Drivers (including me and you) who use Autopilot have to select a button that enables it in the menu and it explicitly states that this is Beta software...meaning you are testing software that has not been finalized yet. As such, the fact that it may phantom brake, steer oddly, or do other things, is totally in bounds (from a legal point of view) and YOU not Tesla are choosing to operate test software on the road environment recognizing (and accepting) liability for things the car may do because it is under your control. There are many on this list who have complained that Tesla is keeping Autopilot in Beta purely to protect themselves legally. While that may be true, I think the number of problems that Autopilot still has would point to the fact the software really is still in Beta and be more concerned if Tesla called the current software "Final".

As such, your comments that the phantom braking on the highway are a safety issue are correct, but they are a safety issue on YOU not Tesla, because you are choosing to operate test software in that environment.

As others have said, the other issues you have with your car may well support a lemon law claim (none of us can judge because you haven't shared them) but the phantom braking/autopilot issues you are seeing are not grounds for a lemon law claim because Tesla has not yet delivered a product to be defective...they are merely giving you the option of an advance preview/test of the current test software...

 

[xyeahtony]

you know people like the OP is exactly why we can't have nice things and is why things like the nag exists in the first place.

if you don't feel safe using autopilot, don't use it. apparently a good 1/3rd of tesla owners dont use it and they still love their cars.

If you want to spend your free time and energy with litigation you won't win, by all means.

 

[ucmndd]

Thanks for your replies, but correct me if I'm wrong: If my car is randomly braking on the interstate and is creating situations that are unsafe for myself and other drivers is this not a safety issue worthy of legal action?

No. You’re choosing to use a beta-labeled driver assistance feature that explicitly states this might happen and that you are expected to maintain attentiveness and be ready to take control at all times.

That is 100% on you.

If those terms are unacceptable to you, turn it off.

 

[Tam]

...a safety issue...

Yes. No question about it. Inappropriate Braking Automation is definitely a safety issue!

The question is whose fault is it?

People keep plowing their Autopilot equipped Tesla cars into firetrucks and even die while autopilot was operating too!

Tesla discloses its automation's limitations clearly so ignoring its owner's manual to pose dangers to self and others is a violation of the terms of use which is the fault of an owner, and not Tesla.