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Blog Tesla Releases Data on Utah Autopilot Crash

Discussion in 'Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD' started by TMC Staff, May 17, 2018.

  1. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It is located at the lower front grille where rain, snow, ice, and in this case, a moth would like to hang around:

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. ThosEM

    ThosEM Space Weatherman

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    So 60 mph on an undivided highway with stop lights, on autopilot. "I'm in a big hurry, but I need to do stuff on my phone so I sure am glad autopilot will take care of driving for me..." (NOT)

    But still: why did no braking occur if emergency braking was enabled?
     
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  3. RDoc

    RDoc S85D

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    That is describing the field of view of the radar. The multiple beam scanning happens within that field of view.

    This is a good overview of how these systems work.
    AWR1243 sensor: Highly integrated 76–81-GHz radar front-endfor emerging ADAS app Analog and Mixed-Signal spyy003 - TI.com
    Resolution can be about 1 degree horizontally and 14 degrees vertically depending on the design. At 40 m the horizontal resolution is about 70 cm.

    I have no idea what the actual hardware in Teslas is, but this is typical of automotive radar.
     
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  4. ZeApelido

    ZeApelido Active Member

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    Amazing complaints here. This is an L2 level feature, not L3, L4, or L5. If the algorithm did not have any false positives or false negatives, it wouldn't be only L2.

    The fact that the sensors & algorithms accuracy requires a tradeoff between false positive and false negative events is not surprising at all. If you want to argue that L2 should not be legal because people will violate proper & safe usage, fine that is a regulatory matter not a Tesla matter.
     
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  5. Barklikeadog

    Barklikeadog Active Member

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    This horse just keeps getting run over.
     
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  6. Lasttoy

    Lasttoy Active Member

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    I would bet the system was so confused by the frequency of on, off on off that it never got set.
    Want to bet she has never read the manual? Or even knows where it is?
     
  7. SO16

    SO16 Active Member

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    Well, they obviously need the ability to tell the difference for FSD (when it gets released). I don’t know where they are at in terms of releasing this “ability” for EAP.
     
  8. whitex

    whitex Well-Known Member

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    Maybe there should be a big warning whenever one enables auto-pilot stating that the car can't tell a soda can apart from a fire-truck, hence it will drive into parked trucks, or concrete medians, when using AP.
     
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  9. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Well-Known Member

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    I'm no expert, and would appreciate correction of anything I get wrong, but my understanding is:

    AEB is always "engaged" ...

    AP cannot see a stationary object, so if the Tesla was following another car, and that car moved to another lane (e.g. that driver having seen the Firetruck blocking the lane), that would then "reveal" the stationary fire truck to Tesla AP, but AP would do nothing about it (AP not being capable to tell the difference between stationary firetruck and any other road-furniture).

    If AEB did react to it then that would not happen "until an impact was inevitable" and as such is not intended to avoid the accident, but rather to lessen the impact. That may have happened (and the driver then took over and braked themselves - which I also understand to be necessary as AEB will not carry on braking [to a stop / below a certain speed], so that "final" braking is required to be done by the driver).

    Whether we can deduce that AEB did not work, or did not start braking soon enough, given the damage to the vehicle, I don't know, but if the driver was distracted / Texting (as they have admitted) then maybe the only reason they looked up, and started braking, was because AEB (or maybe even AP) was already slowing the car dramatically.

    If, OTOH, a Tesla was following a fire truck, on AP, and the fire truck THEN slowed to a stop, then AP would do likewise.
     
  10. Kanting

    Kanting Member

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    The max speed for Tesla AEB to start braking is when the vehicle is traveling at a speed up to 90mph. Euro NCAP's AEB Inter-urban calls for a max speed of 50mph, and I think NHTSA will follow the max. I found Euro NCAP had listed a 2014 Tesla Model S, but at that time AEB wasn't available so not tested. And NHSTA ever studied AEB performance (with a 2015 Model S) but it only tested up to 45mph and the result wasn't perfect--besides, two thirds of the tests turned on Autopilot but at <45mph, Autopilot alone can slow down and stop the car effectively without invoking AEB (AP's max relative tracking speed is 50mph).

    Who has or will test and certify a 90mph AEB, Consumer Reports or the owners.
     
  11. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    I highlighted in RED the parts I have a question about.

    My experience is that since 2018.10.4 the ability to STOP for stationary vehicles has greatly improved (works 99%). WHY? I have the same hardware. So of course it must be a software improvement. RADAR should not have anything to do with the improvement. So assuming this car was on 10.4 or later then what else would have prevented the car from stopping. SPEED? The car is reported to be going > 50mph (reported as 60mph).

    I know that 10.4 greatly improved the stopping when driving < 50mph (my case is mostly < 45mph). Is the problem with doing the same at 60mph (the case with this accident) related to RADAR/Camera or CPU SPEED? Are those of you that feel the problem is with the hardware (RADAR and/or Camera) are you saying it is only a problem at > 50mph and if this driver was say driving 45mph the car would have probably stopped?
     
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  12. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

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    I get the "false positive" argument with radar, but Tesla has a bunch of cameras, too. I think a fifth grader could probably write the code to match a picture of a firetruck with something that looks the same that's standing still while the car is approaching it at a high rate of speed. If they can draw reindeer on the dashboard, surely someone at Tesla has the skill set to figure this out.
     
  13. jimmyjohn

    jimmyjohn Member

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    Is this your way of volunteering? Asking for a friend.

     
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  14. whitex

    whitex Well-Known Member

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    While on the surface I can see how such an argument would appear to make sense, it is completely flawed. It's like saying a toddler can walk, climb, jump, so it should be trivial to make a robot do the same. It's not. If you really think you could create such a vision system, do it, you will be really rich when you sell it.

    My point was different by the way, it was that Tesla should give a plain warning UNTIL they can get their system to work.
     
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  15. SR22pilot

    SR22pilot Member

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    Read the manuals of other systems. You see the same issue. From the 2018 Infiniti Q70 owner’s manual:

    The radar sensor will not detect the follow- ing objects:
    . Stationary and slow moving vehicles

    The Doppler shift for the road is the same as for the stopped vehicle. It is a problem of missed positives vs. false positives. Imagine if every time you approached a hill, the car started to brake automatically.
     
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  16. SO16

    SO16 Active Member

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    #116 SO16, May 20, 2018
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
    If that’s the case, the same should be said about all other manufacturers. Others have worse ranked systems and more false positIves. We hear about the few Tesla crashes but yet totally are oblivious to the other car crashes.

    Guide to Automatic Emergency Braking

    Besides...what good would another warning label do if no one reads the warnings already glaringly obvious when enabling AP?

    Sorry to say but no matter what is done, there will always be some idiot exploiting the system. If you want to try and run a business that builds something like this and try to deal with an absolute zero percent chance of failure, good luck with that.
     
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  17. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

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    It's your analogy that's problematic. Nobody was comparing the human brain to a robot. I was suggesting the use of a camera to supplement the limited capability of Tesla's radar. You are aware of facial recognition software, correct? One would think it might be easier to pick out a stopped fire truck or other vehicle using a camera. The code probably already has been written. If you then match that against the possibly false positive produced by the radar, the decision tree for Tesla's emergency braking algorithm should be fairly obvious: fire truck, stop; hilltop, keep on truckin'.
     
  18. jgs

    jgs Active Member

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    Ah yes, facial recognition is a solved problem.
    One might think so, although my bet is that one is less and less likely to think so the more one's professional expertise in real-time image processing increases. And as someone points out upthread, once the system can do this with extremely high accuracy, it'll be most of the way to the unicorn of full self driving. But so far, no unicorn.
     
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  19. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

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    Kinda suggests what a stupid idea ditching Mobileye was in the first place since they already have millions of images classified. If you can't spot a fire truck, Tesla is a long way off from reading a stop sign or speed limit sign.

    Autonomous Cars: Now You See It, Now You Don’t
     
  20. ferdboyce

    ferdboyce Member

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