Tesla remove FSD capability even if it’s on window sticker?

[USMCAviator]

Hello,

I am interested in a 2022 Model X from a 3rd party dealer. They claim vehicle has FSD, and have the original window sticker to prove it (there’s a line item for FSD Capability, $10k with a matching VIN). However, the software tab only states “Autopilot - Included Package”.

My 2018 P100D on the other hand, states “Full Self Driving Capability - Included Package”.

Did Tesla change the way this software upgrade is displayed in refresh models, or are they really disabling FSD even if it’s on the original monroney sticker?

Thanks for any insight!

 

[EVEnergy]

If the car passed through Tesla on the way to the dealer (auction, lease, etc.) then more than likely FSD is not included. It may have originally had it but for several years Tesla has been clear that if it passes through them, they will remove it. If the car never passed through Tesla, then FSD should stay.

 

[rajbsn]

Tesla generally removes FSD when they resell through auctions and the original window sticker will not help. If the software section on the screen doesn't have it then it is removed. The MX I bought through a dealer had EAP (when I took delivery) but removed later when the ownership changed to my name (Tesla app login). I had multiple communications at that time with Tesla with no luck and was told they removed when they sold the MX to dealer.

I suggest to have the 3rd party dealer resolve the issues before you buy or agree to refund agreed $ if they fail to include the FSD later.

 

[Tam]

...“Full Self Driving Capability - Included Package”...

It's software-enabled feature so it is effortlessly reversible either way without hiring a repossession specialist with a tow truck for this job.

Tesla has been known to accidentally take fsd away from current paid customers:

Lost FSD earlier this week

I had my M3 parked in my buddy's driveway for a few days while on vacation and noticed nav on autopilot wasn't working when i went to pick it up. I soon realized i lost all fsd capabilities. No updates were installed or anything. Spoke with Tesla support and she told me she had another owner...

teslamotorsclub.com

Of course, when pointed out, Tesla would remedy the issue, at least in these particular cases.

 

[Tam]

On the other hand, there's a private fsd ownership transfer that was only good for 10 days with no remedy just yet;

FSD Not Transferring to new Owner Class Action

I’m considering buying a used Y with FSD from a dealer. This thread is encouraging. The dealer has a 5 day return policy. Seems like if the car were going to drop FSD after I link it to my Tesla account it would happen within the 5 day return window, yes?

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[jjrandorin]

Thanks for any insight!

The "insight" is the same as all the other threads where this has been asked (and there are a lot). If the car was ever owned by tesla at any point (as in turned in to tesla, tesla sold to auction, then car bought from auction by this third party dealer) whats on "the window sticker" wont matter.

The car you are looking at does not have FSD if it says "autopilot included package". It sounds like you already know this, though.

 

[Tam]

There's a case that Tesla took away fsd despite the Monroney window sticker but Tesla finally honored the sticker:

Tesla owner says remotely disabled Autopilot features have been restored

The company’s policy is still unclear, though.

www.theverge.com

 

[drtimhill]

There's a case that Tesla took away fsd despite the Monroney window sticker but Tesla finally honored the sticker:

Tesla owner says remotely disabled Autopilot features have been restored

The company’s policy is still unclear, though.

www.theverge.com

But as JJ notes, the point is the Monroney sticker is not relevant on a resale. This is no different from any other car .. who knows what things have been bolted on and removed since any car was originally purchased new?

I agree that its harder to determine what the status of the software is actually on the car ... though I would ask the dealer to show me the current can VIN status on Teslas web site (since presumably the dealer has ownership of the vehicle).

 

[Tam]

But as JJ notes, the point is the Monroney sticker is not relevant on a resale.

The above statement is true and was confirmed when Tesla first denied honoring the Monroney sticker.

The above rule is false when Tesla finally honored the very same Monroney sticker that it denied and made whole to the current owner at last.

I agree that its harder to determine what the status of the software is actually on the car ... though I would ask the dealer to show me the current can VIN status on Teslas web site (since presumably the dealer has ownership of the vehicle).

That's the nature of Tesla as the King of software. It can enable and re-enable without legal oversight.

 

[drtimhill]

The above statement is true and was confirmed when Tesla first denied honoring the Monroney sticker.

The above rule is false when Tesla finally honored the very same Monroney sticker that it denied and made whole to the current owner at last.


That's the nature of Tesla as the King of software. It can enable and re-enable without legal oversight.

No, its never true that a Monroney has any legal bearing on any car resale. In a few cases where the Tesla sale was problematic, Tesla has made the customer whole (mostly as a result of the car being de-populated after the new owner has taken possession, which is definitely Tesla at fault).

And of course Tesla have legal oversight .. they are bound by sales contracts just like anyone else.

 

[Tam]

...a result of the car being de-populated after the new owner has taken possession...

Tesla can conduct an audit any time it wants, before, during, and after the current ownership. If the audit says to take it back, it would, no question asked. The reason Tesla made some customers whole is because they asked questions and in some cases, Tesla backed down, but it's arbitrarily.

And of course Tesla have legal oversight .. they are bound by sales contracts just like anyone else.

Taking something back must be in compliance with repossession law.

We just cannot act like OJ Simpson claiming that he was taking back his own memorabilia and ended up in jail for 12 years.

If Tesla wants to take back a more expensive set of $4,500 21" Arachnid Wheels (that's not included in the standard "free" option), it cannot break down the owner's fence, smash through the garage door and take the wheels back claiming it did a routine audit.

No! It has to notify the owner first. If the owner is uncooperative, it has to go to court and get the warrant and hire a repossession specialist with a tow truck to do the job properly.

That should be the same way with $12,000 FSD.

 

[BobDolesGhost]

If the car passed through Tesla on the way to the dealer (auction, lease, etc.) then more than likely FSD is not included. It may have originally had it but for several years Tesla has been clear that if it passes through them, they will remove it. If the car never passed through Tesla, then FSD should stay.

This is correct. And I have 2 personal experiences with it. Looking at M3P's with FSD at 2 different 3rd party dealers advertising it with FSD. I show up and it doesnt have FSD. Tracing ownership of the cars, both went through Tesla

I ended up buying my '18 M3P FSD directly from Tesla. You get an added benefit of an additional 1yr to both warranties when buying used through Tesla and their prices were very comparable to 3rd parties. I'd advocate you search Tesla's used inventory (if they have any, with EV demand what it is)

 

[jjrandorin]

(not moderation content. not representing TMC moderators, TMC or anyone other than jjrandorin the regular poster, not jjrandorin the TMC moderator of Model 3 and Tesla energy subforums)

A monroney has zero (less than zero) bearing on what may or may not be on a used vehicle. Its a courtesy at that point, because the owner of the car could have removed anything.

If the monroney sticker said a car came with a first aid kit in the trunk, and its now used and the owner buys it and doesnt find a first aid kit in the trunk, no one would bat an eyelash.

The issue here is that sometimes tesla owns these cars and does not do due diligence to make sure things they want to remove are actually removed before sending the car to auction. I am not going to get into the discussion of "its like wheels" because I am less than not interested in it.

I will just say that a monroney sticker for a used car means nothing, and in this OPs case its obvious the car does not have FSD, and tesla will not simply re enable it because its on the monroney. For anything more than that, there are quite a few other threads on this topic on TMC one can peruse through.

Note that I added the "not moderation" content to this post, because even though most of the time I am not posting as a moderator, but as myself, and I feel I am fairly clear when that is not the case, in certain circumstances when I say something like "I am not interested in XXX" I want to make sure that its clear that I am talking "as myself" and not representing moderation, or tmc, etc.

 

[drtimhill]

Taking something back must be in compliance with repossession law.

We just cannot act like OJ Simpson claiming that he was taking back his own memorabilia and ended up in jail for 12 years.

If Tesla wants to take back a more expensive set of $4,500 21" Arachnid Wheels (that's not included in the standard "free" option), it cannot break down the owner's fence, smash through the garage door and take the wheels back claiming it did a routine audit.

No! It has to notify the owner first. If the owner is uncooperative, it has to go to court and get the warrant and hire a repossession specialist with a tow truck to do the job properly.

That should be the same way with $12,000 FSD.

yes, and that’s how it does work for FSD (and other software options). Do you know of any instance of someone walking up to their car in the morning and finding a software option they had purchased removed?

Pretty much all the reported incidence of people thinking this has happened have been as result of them deducing that they had bought a car with a software option when they had in fact not done so. Sometimes that deduction was based on a mistaken assurance from the seller/dealer, other times by examining the Monroney or other first-sale documents. None of these are anything to do with Tesla de-contenting the car.

On a few very rare occasions, a car has got into the retail channel from Tesla before it was correctly de-contented, and this is clearly Tesla’s fault. On those occasions (or at least those that were reported here in TMC) Tesla made good since it was their error.

Where Tesla should do better is in making it clear what content is or is not available in the car, especially when they resell de-contended cars to dealers for resale. However, I’m not clear how much Tesla can protect against dubious dealers (perish the thought they any exist).

 

[Tam]

...Do you know of any instance of someone walking up to their car in the morning and finding a software option they had purchased removed?...

Please read the citation in message #4 above:

The victim described exactly your scenario above:

"I had my M3 parked in my buddy's driveway for a few days while on vacation and noticed nav on autopilot wasn't working when i went to pick it up. I soon realized i lost all fsd capabilities. No updates were installed or anything."

Lost FSD earlier this week

I had my M3 parked in my buddy's driveway for a few days while on vacation and noticed nav on autopilot wasn't working when i went to pick it up. I soon realized i lost all fsd capabilities. No updates were installed or anything. Spoke with Tesla support and she told me she had another owner...

teslamotorsclub.com

Multiple owners paid for FSD but only lost the description of FSD on the account and later was reinstated after the complaints. These owners never lost the actual function of FSD.

However, there were multiple others who bought the FSD and were able to use the FSD fine. Then both the description of FSD on the account and the function of FSD were taken away without warnings.

Those people were offered to pay FSD again at the bargain price of $6,000 in addition to what they already paid for FSD.

Tesla challenged their stories that FSD were paid:

"Will you provide me with an invoice where it states you purchased the Full Self Driving, along with a screenshot of your financial institution showing that we took the amount for the Full Self Driving?"


It indeed acknowledged the mistake after all:

"Not the best news, but news nonetheless today. I have been informed that there is a case for this issue that multiple customers are experiencing with their MyTesla accounts and the FSD status. We are filling the information for all the affected accounts and currently investigating the solution. At this point I have been informed there is no fix but you are on the list when the issue is resolved to receive that resolution."

That's the problem of repossession without going through the proper legal channel. This could have been prevented if they first notified the victims so they could send them the proofs of purchase rather than pulling the rugs with no warnings.

 

[drtimhill]

Please read the citation in message #4 above:

The victim described exactly your scenario above:

"I had my M3 parked in my buddy's driveway for a few days while on vacation and noticed nav on autopilot wasn't working when i went to pick it up. I soon realized i lost all fsd capabilities. No updates were installed or anything."

No, you are conflating two very different things:

(A) Tesla messing up and accidentally removing a feature, then fixing this when they are told about it (as per post #4).
(B) Tesla claiming the right to arbitrarily and permanently remove a feature a customer has paid for, and actually doing so.

You have used the example in post #4 (case A) to make assertions about case B, which is invalid reasoning. I'll re-state what I said (more clearly perhaps): Do you know of any well-documented example of case B?

 

[abasile]

Tesla could have shipped the vehicle from the factory with FSD enabled and listed on the Monroney window sticker.

Immediately prior to sale, Tesla could have removed FSD at the request of the customer. I highly doubt they would have printed a new window sticker, though.