Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision

[stopcrazypp]

Call me old fashioned..... but when you're spending anywhere from 50k to 100k + on a car, there should be a pretty solid core of stuff that just works and continues working.

I don't recall Elon's tweet explaining his take on the use of 'Beta' term. Part of me sincerely wants to breath a deep sigh of relief based on your post (@stopcrazypp) and say 'phew, that all makes sense.' But even the engineer in me (who gets at least some of what it takes to tread in unchartered territory) is very much perplexed by the apparent reality distortion field that surrounds so much that makes up the Tesla Experience.

But that system may not work as well out of factory than what Tesla has, even if it works the same throughout the life of the car (in other words the "general release" software from a major manufacturer may work more poorly than something labeled "beta" by Tesla).

I remember this being the case for lane keeping systems. If you bought a Mercedes one from 2016, the reviews are not exactly flattering even though the system was "fully tested" before release (whatever that means). And it'll work like that throughout your car ownership, with no hope of improvement. If you bought AP, the autosteer had been improved to the point where there is rarely if any complaints about that (the complaints are all on phantom braking basically).
Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

The reality distortion field is there because there are many features in Teslas that genuinely work really well.

 

[Battpower]

many features in Teslas that genuinely work really well.

Trying to find basis for agreement:

Charging network.
Integration charging with MCU / GPS.
Air suspension ride quality.
Premium sound system.
Some aspects of recent app. versions.
Ongoing hope of improvements.
Basic lane keeping.
Third party apps like SMT, Teslalogger / Mate / Fi.
Pretty comfortable (front) seats.
MS decent trunk space.
Good range estimates.
Fast acceleration.

All of the above score very high by my reckoning. But these don't look like much when considered against the claims made by Tesla for their cars. What have I missed?

 

[sleepydoc]

they are used to buying a car and the features in the car working pretty much exactly the same as when they bought it

The allure (siren song?) of Tesla is you can get over the air updates adding new features and improving old ones. The reality is many features are released before they are ready and are buggy and inconsistent. On top of that, Tesla will sometimes release an update that breaks things or actually makes them worse.

Traditional car makers do not plan on updating their software so they go to great lengths to ensure the quality and reliability of the software before shipping the car. Tesla may add new features but they’ll have no qualms about releasing them long before they’re ready for prime time and take months or years to get the bugs out.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The allure (siren song?) of Tesla is you can get over the air updates adding new features and improving old ones. The reality is many features are released before they are ready and are buggy and inconsistent. On top of that, Tesla will sometimes release an update that breaks things or actually makes them worse.

Traditional car makers do not plan on updating their software so they go to great lengths to ensure the quality and reliability of the software before shipping the car. Tesla may add new features but they’ll have no qualms about releasing them long before they’re ready for prime time and take months or years to get the bugs out.

Yes, its a double edge sword. But as I point out, sometimes the features even when released in such a state by Tesla works better than a traditional automaker's solution that they have supposedly tested extensively.

A lot of automakers today are taking the same approach as Tesla because otherwise they can't compete with Tesla using their older development timelines. See for example the MachE and ID.4, a lot of features didn't work at launch (and many still have issues even today).

 

[Mike7564]

Trying to find basis for agreement:

Charging network.
Integration charging with MCU / GPS.
Air suspension ride quality.
Premium sound system.
Some aspects of recent app. versions.
Ongoing hope of improvements.
Basic lane keeping.
Third party apps like SMT, Teslalogger / Mate / Fi.
Pretty comfortable (front) seats.
MS decent trunk space.
Good range estimates.
Fast acceleration.

All of the above score very high by my reckoning. But these don't look like much when considered against the claims made by Tesla for their cars. What have I missed?

Hahaha.

Air suspension is only on a subset.

Premium sound system? Seriously?

Fast acceleration? Ummm…. That’s just an EV

I love how “hope for improvements” is a feature. Yes, we can always hope and pray.

 

[Battpower]

Hahaha.

Air suspension is only on a subset.

Premium sound system? Seriously?

Fast acceleration? Ummm…. That’s just an EV

I love how “hope for improvements” is a feature. Yes, we can always hope and pray.

I was trying very hard!

Note that the feature was hope for improvements rather than expectation or likelihood!

My Tesla out accelerates my Kona which in turn accelerates faster than my Zoe. All are EV's.

My MS Raven sound system is not bad for a stock system imo.

Air is on my subset so I'm happy with it.

Scratching around.....!

 

[DarkForest]

That may well be true. But it does presumably add something, otherwise why does Tesla bother declaring features to still be 'beta'? Unless from a marketing perspective 'beta' suggests it will be soon pass final engineering release status - which sounds more palatable than 'this functionally incomplete product may not perform consistently or as expected and we have no obligation to improve its performance'.

Keeping the “Beta” label does the same thing those signs on trucks that say “Not responsible for broken windshields” do. While legally it means nothing (they are very much responsible for broken windshields), it prevents most people from making a legal fuss because they assume it means something that it doesn’t.

 

[whitex]

AFAIK automatic headlights are not a legal requirement. If it was, Tesla wouldn't have even been able to sell the car off the lot.
From a quick search:

Do daytime running lights make cars less safe?

Car lighting tech is dangerously halfway to where it should be.

www.google.com

That article was from 2017, but you are right, I couldn't find the actual US requirement. I work with various car manufacturers, and I've heard them refer to automatic headlights (dark detection) as mandatory, but perhaps it's their internal requirement, or perhaps they refer to other countries like Japan (also mentioned in the link you provided).

The point still stands, Tesla abuses OTA, by selling future functionality and not delivering for a long time, even simple safety feature like automatic headlights control.

 

[whitex]

Again, you are mixing concepts. GA does not necessarily mean “all functionality”. In very broad strokes, GA means that the released functionality is defined and supported. FSD is probably a good example - it is not FSD (I am not even sure what that means anymore) but the subset of released functions is supported. On the other hand, auto wipers are still in “beta”, which means that it is “best effort, not guaranteed”.

You are excused in your confusion though, as it relates to Tesla, because they abuse the concept (hence, my original comment). It is a joke for such basic function like auto wipers to be in “beta” for so many years. I am not intimately familiar with their development rituals or product management but from the outside it looks more like a sorry startup and afterthought than one of the largest in the world - lack of focus, no clearly defined deliverables and milestones, absent QA, lack of design expertise, zero customer feedback - big part of why this 78 pages post sounds like Alcoholics Anonymous meeting…

Both auto wipers and FSD only have a subset of functionality released, at least as per definition of FSD in 2016 when it was first sold. So why is one subset of features considered GA (FSD) but another subset of features considered Beta (auto wipers)? Or did I miss something and there is a GA version of the FSD which will drive my friends and family around, while making me money driving for the Tesla Ride Sharing Network (all in the official description in 2016)?

 

[whitex]

You'd think they would be if that's what was offered to and purchased by buyer. Unless of course there was some clause in a purchase agreement with words to the effect that 'when you buy from us, we get to decide what you actually get.... sooner or later (by OTA if needs be!)

I realize you were probably being facetious, but you actually got it right - Tesla added such a clause to the purchase agreement (I know someone who picked up a new Tesla this week, the clause about parking sensors being absent is there). Tesla learned with some earlier bullshit "coming soon via OTA" features, like the P85D passing speeds update which never came, to have legal CYA. This is why they added the following back when introduced FSD:

Back when P85D was release Tesla advertised "motor power" to be 691hp, and 2-3 years later they "clarified" that it's just the motor, not any other part of the car's drive train, which was actually limited to 463hp. But Tesla felt they did nothing wrong - not their fault customer interpreted motor power as actually achievable in the vehicle that the motor was sold in. The above FSD disclaimer is a clear CYA, should try to sue Tesla for FSD at any time in the future, they can just point to the disclaimer and say that they are still working on it, telling you to be patient that "it's coming sooner than anyone thinks".

 

[whitex]

The reality distortion field is there because there are many features in Teslas that genuinely work really well.

True, however Teslas constant messing with features which once worked (such as the web browser on MCU1, or parking sensors on latest cars even if equipped with physical sensors), make people not want to buy Tesla products. Elons constant flip flopping "radar is the best thing since sliced break, can see under the car in front of you" to "radar is useless, we're pulling it", back to "radar is awesome, we're adding it back in") scares anyone who does not want to drive an experimental car because they are curious, have a deep devotion to Elon, or to make YouTube videos.

I have a non-Tesla on order. I actually ordered their driving assist because they were honest about its limitations. I skipped any paid Tesla Autopilot features on my last two Teslas and advised anyone who asked to not waste their money on them. My next car, due to be delivered next month, will have less capable, but safer driver assists. Fine by me by the way, I won't have to worry about it behaving differently after every update which may come every week (one of my Teslas was damaged by one stupid update which Tesla reverted few days later, but did not cover the physical damage caused by it). I want my car to be a safe, reliable, but fun to drive transportation, not a science experiment to play with.

 

[Battpower]

Tesla advertised "motor power" to be 691hp, and 2-3 years later they "clarified" that it's just the motor, not any other part of the car's drive train

It's hard to do anything other than judge a book by its cover when you don't have much to start with except maybe your own 'dreams'.

The motor power example shows perfectly how Tesla seems exceptionally adept at making claims that can be defended while also using foreseeable misunderstanding to their (big) advantage.

Removing USS with no current functional substitute shows disregard for buyers' normal contractual expectations.

USB album artwork (ages to reinstate and still shows inconsistent images on IC / MCU. Shows apparent inability to resolve minor bugs promptly even with OTA updates.

Non-availability of remote sentry view on recent / MCU2 'legacy' cars even though shown to be possible shows failure to use OTA to keep fleet as current as permitted by available hardware.

Reversing camera black level / contrast adjustment contributing to substandard image under specific lighting conditions since MCU2 suggests disinterest in addressing obvious retrograde steps in their own product evolution.

FSD / FSD Beta / headlights / wipers (and unrelated eMMC / excess logging) etc..... Don't know where to start. Shows thrashing around trying to deliver unrealistic high aspirations?

Non-acknowledgement of phantom braking followed by deletion of radar due to sensor fusion difficulty followed by alleged reintroduction of radar. Shows disregard for widely reported owner experience followed by further disregard for their intelligence (owners having to unquestioningly accept removal / exchange / random linking of features).

UI font size changes and layout - shows lack of understanding of how many owners use their vehicles and expect consistent performance and carefully implemented updates.

General approach to use of OTA (only recently shows main changes ahead of installation and still no way of separating critical updates from minor changes) shows lack of appreciation for the potential adverse impact on ownership experience.

85 battery software work-around rather than fixing faulty hardware shows inginuity but also willingness to treat car as extension of Tesla rather than property of owner that should be maintained in an original functional condition under warranty. IE fix what's broken rather than find a way to avoid needing it. Has some parallels with USS and Radar situation?

At some point, people have more than the book's cover to base their expectations on.

 

[cab]

I haven't read this whole thread but has anyone posted this video (looks like a salvage model 3 without the front bumper or sensors installed which then APPEARS to still detect cars to either side with distance)...?
Tesla vision replacing ultrasonics???

 

[oholladay]

I haven't read this whole thread but has anyone posted this video (looks like a salvage model 3 without the front bumper or sensors installed which then APPEARS to still detect cars to either side with distance)...?
Tesla vision replacing ultrasonics???

NotATeslaApp wrote an article about it now.

Owner Finds Tesla Is Already Using Vision to Replace Ultrasonic Sensors

Tesla's vehicles are now showing distances between without ultrasonic sensors (USS).

www.notateslaapp.com

 

[Mike7564]

NotATeslaApp wrote an article about it now.

Owner Finds Tesla Is Already Using Vision to Replace Ultrasonic Sensors

Tesla's vehicles are now showing distances between without ultrasonic sensors (USS).

www.notateslaapp.com

Fortunately it’s not likely someone would hit something with the front bumper.

 

[Boza]

NotATeslaApp wrote an article about it now.

Owner Finds Tesla Is Already Using Vision to Replace Ultrasonic Sensors

Tesla's vehicles are now showing distances between without ultrasonic sensors (USS).

www.notateslaapp.com

Isn’t this exactly what multi-sensor solution looks like? If one sensor (or class of sensors) fail there is a backup. Also, comparing data from different sensors - what pretty much eve else is doing.

 

[Dewg]

Isn’t this exactly what multi-sensor solution looks like? If one sensor (or class of sensors) fail there is a backup. Also, comparing data from different sensors - what pretty much eve else is doing.

An interesting video I've shared before about what happens when cameras fail as well:

 

[sleepydoc]

NotATeslaApp wrote an article about it now.

Owner Finds Tesla Is Already Using Vision to Replace Ultrasonic Sensors

Tesla's vehicles are now showing distances between without ultrasonic sensors (USS).

www.notateslaapp.com

Thanks for posting that. From the article:

“Occupy Mars noticed the Model 3 was not showing the distance between the car and the garage. Instead, it was detecting objects at the corners of the vehicle. This would make sense given the blindspot in front of the vehicle where cameras can not see.”

This is precisely the concern most people have with removing USSs. The area immediately in front of the bumper is one of the main uses when parking, and the sensors actually cover a blind spot of the cameras, so implementing a vision-based solution will be difficult at best.

 

[cab]

Thanks for posting that. From the article:

“Occupy Mars noticed the Model 3 was not showing the distance between the car and the garage. Instead, it was detecting objects at the corners of the vehicle. This would make sense given the blindspot in front of the vehicle where cameras can not see.”

This is precisely the concern most people have with removing USSs. The area immediately in front of the bumper is one of the main uses when parking, and the sensors actually cover a blind spot of the cameras, so implementing a vision-based solution will be difficult at best.

One thing that others have noted is that the cameras can see something on approach (some angles being an exception) and theoretically the software can calculate the distance. It could also "remember" what it looked like upon restart. It CAN'T however realize that you put those two paint cans you picked up from Home Depot on the floor in front of the car AFTER you parked. Interestingly, though, my buddy with a 2019 Raven Model S just pointed out that he has stuff sitting 3 inches from the front of his Model S now and it is showing "18 inches" - the distance to the wall...so not sure how accurate the USS are even today or if the cameras are being used more heavily than first thought.

 

[Yelobird]

One thing that others have noted is that the cameras can see something on approach (some angles being an exception) and theoretically the software can calculate the distance. It could also "remember" what it looked like upon restart. It CAN'T however realize that you put those two paint cans you picked up from Home Depot on the floor in front of the car AFTER you parked. Interestingly, though, my buddy with a 2019 Raven Model S just pointed out that he has stuff sitting 3 inches from the front of his Model S now and it is showing "18 inches" - the distance to the wall...so not sure how accurate the USS are even today or if the cameras are being used more heavily than first thought.

In general most all USS sensors pick up targets or walls at bumper height and above so a paint can will always be an issue. Might want to store your DIY projects away from the front/rear of any car.