Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision

[stopcrazypp]

Thanks for posting that. From the article:

“Occupy Mars noticed the Model 3 was not showing the distance between the car and the garage. Instead, it was detecting objects at the corners of the vehicle. This would make sense given the blindspot in front of the vehicle where cameras can not see.”

This is precisely the concern most people have with removing USSs. The area immediately in front of the bumper is one of the main uses when parking, and the sensors actually cover a blind spot of the cameras, so implementing a vision-based solution will be difficult at best.

It could also be because the AP feed does not currently treat walls as an object (unless it detects it to be a vehicle). It would be interesting to see the same test done with a vehicle in front.

 

[sleepydoc]

One thing that others have noted is that the cameras can see something on approach (some angles being an exception) and theoretically the software can calculate the distance. It could also "remember" what it looked like upon restart. It CAN'T however realize that you put those two paint cans you picked up from Home Depot on the floor in front of the car AFTER you parked. Interestingly, though, my buddy with a 2019 Raven Model S just pointed out that he has stuff sitting 3 inches from the front of his Model S now and it is showing "18 inches" - the distance to the wall...so not sure how accurate the USS are even today or if the cameras are being used more heavily than first thought.

IME, the sensors in may MY have been quite accurate at picking up posts in the parking lot at work that are 6-8" (15-20cm) in diameter. They've also detected the charging cable & plug that hangs down from the ceiling in my garage. Every time I've actually checked the sensors have been accurate to within an inch.

In general most all USS sensors pick up targets or walls at bumper height and above so a paint can will always be an issue. Might want to store your DIY projects away from the front/rear of any car.

You don't have kids, do you?

It could also be because the AP feed does not currently treat walls as an object (unless it detects it to be a vehicle). It would be interesting to see the same test done with a vehicle in front.

One advantage of the USSs is they are 'dumb' in that they just detect something; there's no analysis of what it might be, just that something's causing a signal to bounce back. We've seen cases with the AP/FSD software where unrecognized objects are simply ignored. Hopefully they don't use that approach here.

 

[KArnold]

They've also detected the charging cable & plug that hangs down from the ceiling in my garage.

How so? Like a perimeter alarm counting inches? I have a ping pong ball on a string hitting the windshield indicating I've pulled in far enough. Never saw any detection if it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

One advantage of the USSs is they are 'dumb' in that they just detect something; there's no analysis of what it might be, just that something's causing a signal to bounce back. We've seen cases with the AP/FSD software where unrecognized objects are simply ignored. Hopefully they don't use that approach here.

That's what the Occupancy Network is supposed to address, it makes a generalized 3D environment where blocks of volume is marked as either occupied or not occupied (as opposed to previous NNs that rely on recognizing objects). However, given the car in the video is based on an older version, it might be just using regular AP objects as the input to determine distance.

 

[SalisburySam]

One thing that others have noted is that the cameras can see something on approach (some angles being an exception) and theoretically the software can calculate the distance. It could also "remember" what it looked like upon restart.

For me, the problem is that “theoretically” part. That is vs. the “reality” that USS easily provides the distance, and has for decades. In Apple-speak, it just works. But yeah, you’re going to crush the paint cans either way.

 

[sleepydoc]

For me, the problem is that “theoretically” part. That is vs. the “reality” that USS easily provides the distance, and has for decades. In Apple-speak, it just works. But yeah, you’re going to crush the paint cans either way.

Theory is nice but it doesn’t drive cars and that’s exactly the concern I have with Tesla dropping the USSs before they have a working replacement. Turning theory into reality is often not a trivial or quick task.

 

[Boza]

Theory is nice but it doesn’t drive cars and that’s exactly the concern I have with Tesla dropping the USSs before they have a working replacement. Turning theory into reality is often not a trivial or quick task.

Most great theories fail to operationalize. Just look at the VC or angel investors world.

 

[whitex]

Most great theories fail to operationalize. Just look at the VC or angel investors world.

Remember when Elon decided he didn't need no stinkin' body side monitoring radars (like all the other manufacturers, even on low end cars) for blind spot detection? His genius idea was to use parking sensors, so Tesla started shipping it. Elon never bothered considering why they are called PARKING sensors, or sending out some interns to see how well parking sensors work when the car is doing 75mph on a highway up-wind. Spoiler alert, no so great. A little while later Tesla scrubbed their website from any mention of blind spot monitoring and pretended it was never there, then the next generation side mirrors harnesses no longer had a wire connection for blind spot warning that the original side harness did. Elon never admitted to his mistake, with Teslas shipping for years without proper blind spot monitoring. Even today, the cameras serve this purpose but are not as reliable as a simple $80 BSM radar. Parking sensors will probably a similar Elon failure to which he will never admit to. But it did save $115 per car, so $230M if Tesla manages to ship 2M cars as per Elon's car.

 

[dramsey]

Remember when Elon decided he didn't need no stinkin' body side monitoring radars (like all the other manufacturers, even on low end cars) for blind spot detection?

Same thing with auto wipers, as I never tired of pointing oit. A standard rain sensor is < $5 in quantity and works perfectly. Instead we have “Beta” autowipers for more than 4 years now (FACT-O-RAMA: No Tesla software labeled “beta” has ever come out of “beta”) that use the forward cameras to see if it “looks rainy” or something. They…kinda work. Unless it’s dark.

 

[whitex]

Same thing with auto wipers, as I never tired of pointing oit. A standard rain sensor is < $5 in quantity and works perfectly. Instead we have “Beta” autowipers for more than 4 years now (FACT-O-RAMA: No Tesla software labeled “beta” has ever come out of “beta”) that use the forward cameras to see if it “looks rainy” or something. They…kinda work. Unless it’s dark.

It has gotten better over the years, but they have been shipping it since 2016, so you'd think in 2023 they reached at least parity with the $5 sensor. I cannot offer an opinion on this however as I don't drive my wife's Model S enough, I know she stopped complaining about the rain sensor, but it could be she got used to it being crappy (I don't want to poke the bear on that one by asking). To be fair, the physical sensor on my Model S is not perfect either. Looking forward to see how my next car (not a Tesla, traditional auto-maker) coming in a couple of weeks will do with auto-wipers.

[shameless plug] I will have a May 2015 P85DL+ for sale within a month. Real, working physical rain sensor, real reliable parking sensors, working AP1 (MobileEye based, actually works great for lane-keeping), ludicrous upgrade (0-60mph sub 3s), sport air suspension (probably the last batch of sport suspensions Tesla ever produced), dual chargers (80A/19.2KW charging), LTE (just did MCU replacement recall), built-in Stinger VIP Extreme front+back radar and laser countermeasures (jammer), built-in dashcam, tint, great shape. Oh, real round steering wheel with stalks too (none of that all touch controls Elon bullshit)! DM me if interested.

 

[Boza]

FYI - no, they have not fixed the auto wipers. On the contrary, they made them mandatory for the cruise control/FSD to work. I rarely use cruise control anymore because of that.

 

[dramsey]

It has gotten better over the years, but they have been shipping it since 2016, so you'd think in 2023 they reached at least parity with the $5 sensor.

I don't think they will ever reach parity with a physical rain sensor, because it's impossible.

 

[SalisburySam]

Same thing with auto wipers, as I never tired of pointing oit. A standard rain sensor is < $5 in quantity and works perfectly. Instead we have “Beta” autowipers for more than 4 years now (FACT-O-RAMA: No Tesla software labeled “beta” has ever come out of “beta”) that use the forward cameras to see if it “looks rainy” or something. They…kinda work. Unless it’s dark.

You had me at FACT-O-RAMA! Thanks for the morning chuckle. Followed by the sad fact about Tesla’s beta nomenclature.

 

[sleepydoc]

I don't think they will ever reach parity with a physical rain sensor, because it's impossible.

Even the physical sensors aren’t great.

 

[James-R10]

I don't think they will ever reach parity with a physical rain sensor, because it's impossible.

what do you think a physical rain sensor is?? Oh wait..

 

[Supcom]

I don't think they will ever reach parity with a physical rain sensor, because it's impossible.

Proof of impossibility claim, please. Otherwise, you are just touting your ignorance.

BTW, my 2021 M2LR wipers have worked perfectly since the day I got the car. So, it must be possible to do without a dedicated rain sensor.

 

[Yelobird]

Proof of impossibility claim, please. Otherwise, you are just touting your ignorance.

BTW, my 2021 M2LR wipers have worked perfectly since the day I got the car. So, it must be possible to do without a dedicated rain sensor.

Agreed. Haven’t had issues with mine Other than my own neglect. Meaning, I like to use wiper blades till they fall off or physically can’t see. Had issues with wipers Till I noticed the top area the camera looks through couldn’t see at all. New blades and no issues.

 

[dramsey]

Proof of impossibility claim, please. Otherwise, you are just touting your ignorance.

BTW, my 2021 M2LR wipers have worked perfectly since the day I got the car. So, it must be possible to do without a dedicated rain sensor.

I'm touting 6+ years of experience with my 2016 car as compared to the physical rain sensor on my 2013 car.

There have been literally hundreds of posts here over the years complaining about the same thing. This is really easy to verify by typing "rain sensor" into the search field at the top of the page.

Last, I didn't say outright that it was impossible, just that I thought it was; as an opinion, it doesn't require proof to assert, just justification, which I provided above.

A subtle distinction to be sure, but subtlety generally isn't a thing in threads here.

 

[dramsey]

what do you think a physical rain sensor is?? Oh wait..

A "physical rain sensor" is a small module containing infrared LEDs and photosensors. They work by shining IR light out through the windshield and detecting reflections from the light bouncing around inside rain drops. It's a very mature technology that works very well.

The current scheme uses image analysis of data from one or more of the front cameras to determine the amount of water on the windshield.

OK, so "dedicated rain sensor" would have been better...

 

[mtndrew1]

what do you think a physical rain sensor is?? Oh wait..

A “physical” rain sensor is optical but it blasts out IR and checks for a return signature. It doesn’t care if it’s light or dark outside, it doesn’t fail to detect mist against grey backgrounds, it just looks for IR refraction.

They are very cheap and very reliable. Tesla deleted them in late 2016 and the performance has never been the same.

Rain sensor paper