Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision

[stopcrazypp]

Radar was pulled in May/April 2021, was there a shortage then? Continental was making 30 million a year in Texas as of August 2020 and 2021 had total company sales up by 6%.

I questioned this also back then, people pushed back. I don't think there is much evidence radar sensors were in short supply back then, as it seemed like only Tesla was removing them in mass (there were some automakers removing some ADAS features, but that doesn't directly point to radar). There were chips in short supply and the lumbar many manufacturers were removing (just like in this case with USS).

I wouldn't expect USS to be hit as hard by the chip crunch but it could be. Seems strange timing though based on your linked article.

 

[Cheburashka]

I never said it was a component cost decision, I said the component cost savings would more than offset the extra software engineering expense needed in reply to:

And it doesn't matter if the price is hundred or hundreds. Say the sensors and wire harness only cost $1 each totaling $14. At their current build rate, that's over $14 million a year in savings. That pays for a lot of full time engineers.

I'm sure there are some competent engineers at Tesla but we are also talking about the company that can't get auto wipers out of beta.

I wouldn't keep my hopes up.

 

[Jjrss]

And this... very exhaustive list of 2022 models...

Note the several instances of "parking sensor" or "parking assist" that were pulled. If you correlate the OEM to supplier of the sensor...

Running list of cars with spec changes, due to chip shortage

Here are some of the cars confirmed to have had features temporarily removed due to the global semiconductor shortage.

www.carexpert.com.au

I questioned this also back then, people pushed back. I don't think there is much evidence radar sensors were in short supply back then, as it seemed like only Tesla was removing them in mass (there were some automakers removing some ADAS features, but that doesn't directly point to radar). There were chips in short supply and the lumbar many manufacturers were removing (just like in this case with USS).

Um... in 99% of all cars with ADAS features, the radar is at the heart of Traffic Aware Cruise Control, blind spot monitoring and early braking.

Also, I cant help to think that you've been living under a rock for the past year if you think the US Auto Industry wasn't massively impacted by the chip shortage.

Ford and GM literally have hundreds of thousands of undeliverable cars/trucks pending semiconductor related parts to finish assembly.

 

[stopcrazypp]

And this... very exhaustive list of 2022 models...

Note the several instances of "parking sensor" or "parking assist" that were pulled. If you correlate the OEM to supplier of the sensor...

Running list of cars with spec changes, due to chip shortage

Here are some of the cars confirmed to have had features temporarily removed due to the global semiconductor shortage.

www.carexpert.com.au

Um... in 99% of all cars with ADAS features, the radar is at the heart of Traffic Aware Cruise Control, blind spot monitoring and early braking.

ADAS also runs on chips that were actually known to be in short supply. There are a few like Tesla that are primarily camera based (like Mobileye and Eyesight).
Edit, I dug back. For example BMW removed an advanced ADAS package, but kept features that still require radar (like FCW/AEB):
Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"
That suggests a shortage of a chip that supports that ADAS package, but that doesn't mean they removed the radar.

Also, I cant help to think that you've been living under a rock for the past year if you think the US Auto Industry wasn't massively impacted by the chip shortage.

Ford and GM literally have hundreds of thousands of undeliverable cars/trucks pending semiconductor related parts to finish assembly.

I never claimed that, in fact I claimed the opposite (I mentioned evidence of chips and lumbar being in short supply then which other manufacturers also removed)!. I'm talking about evidence of radar sensors in particular being in short supply (basically other manufacturers removing radars specifically in mass at the same time Tesla is doing so).

The difference this time, is there is explicit evidence other automakers are removing USS specifically. That evidence was missing with the radars last time.

 

[OxBrew]

ADAS also runs on chips that were actually known to be in short supply. There are a few like Tesla that are primarily camera based (like Mobileye and Eyesight).
Edit, I dug back. For example BMW removed an advanced ADAS package, but kept features that still require radar (like FCW/AEB):
Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"
That suggests a shortage of a chip that supports that ADAS package, but that doesn't mean they removed the radar.

I never claimed that, in fact I claimed the opposite (I mentioned evidence of chips and lumbar being in short supply then which other manufacturers also removed)!. I'm talking about evidence of radar sensors in particular being in short supply (basically other manufacturers removing radars specifically in mass at the same time Tesla is doing so).

The difference this time, is there is explicit evidence other automakers are removing USS specifically. That evidence was missing with the radars last time.

I don't remember any specifics around the Tesla radar, but that Spring and Summer was when there were massive delays shipping ANYTHING, into the US, and all over. We had some of our own production's parts stalled for 8-9 months at one point.

It was logistics hell. I don't blame Tesla or anyone else for being resilient in the face of that.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't remember any specifics around the Tesla radar, but that Spring and Summer was when there were massive delays shipping ANYTHING, into the US, and all over. We had some of our own production's parts stalled for 8-9 months at one point.

It was logistics hell. I don't blame Tesla or anyone else for being resilient in the face of that.

Well shipping delays is one thing (my work dealt with that too back then, as well as parts shortages which are still ongoing), but the chip shortages were the chips not being made at the factory due to automakers reducing orders during pandemic, and then the chip manufacturers switching to making other products and not being able to (or not wanting to) switch back.

I dug a bit more to find a list of parts that were missing for other automakers, there is the lumbar and USS (park assist) mentioned, but there are none that are radar specific.
Features Affected by the Chip Shortage

For the ones that had ADAS features removed, they were more advanced versions which used chips that everyone knew were in short supply (which supports my point). Besides from the BMW example from the old thread, that article points out Hyundai dropped the more advanced HDA II package, and reverted to the older HDA I, which still had ACC and basic lane keeping, so still kept the radar. If the radar was the part with the shortage, then logically they would have dropped the entire package completely, not just downgrade to a lesser version.
Genesis Leans on Older Driver Aids to Avoid Chip-Related Delays

 

[Boza]

As to cost, SW development has zero cost after it is solved, whereas sensor cost exists on every car built.

Judging by their success so far (e.g. auto wipers), It will take a while until they solve it so that it is comparable to USS.
Even if they solve it, there is a sw maintenance cost that increases exponentially with complexity. I thing we could agree that measuring distance with USS is way less complex than measuring using TV.
Then, there is the opportunity cost. From an average customer perspective (who does not really care about USS vs TV until that becomes an issue) there are higher priority problems that need solving - auto wipers, auto high beams, phantom braking, etc. It is clear that Tesla is more interested in cutting cost than serving the customer.

 

[Boza]

A Tesla 1.2MP camera (1280x960) uses raw photon count from the 4 sub-pixel sensors, so it is more like 5MP. HW4 will have 5MP (pixel groups) from Samsung.

Please stop with the “raw photon count” BS.
No camera measures that. There are gazzillons of photons hitting each pixel in order to create enough charge for the circuitry to detect it.
Indeed, there are instruments that measure raw photon count but they are Tesla size (and those are the small ones) and cost tens, if not hundreds, of Teslas. Those instruments are quite useful in quantum physics research.
I understand that “raw photon count” sounds cool but it is an absolute, total BS in the Tesla context.

 

[Jjrss]

Well shipping delays is one thing (my work dealt with that too back then, as well as parts shortages which are still ongoing), but the chip shortages were the chips not being made at the factory due to automakers reducing orders during pandemic, and then the chip manufacturers switching to making other products and not being able to (or not wanting to) switch back.

I dug a bit more to find a list of parts that were missing for other automakers, there is the lumbar and USS (park assist) mentioned, but there are none that are radar specific.
Features Affected by the Chip Shortage

For the ones that had ADAS features removed, they were more advanced versions which used chips that everyone knew were in short supply (which supports my point). Besides from the BMW example from the old thread, that article points out Hyundai dropped the more advanced HDA II package, and reverted to the older HDA I, which still had ACC and basic lane keeping, so still kept the radar. If the radar was the part with the shortage, then logically they would have dropped the entire package completely, not just downgrade to a lesser version.
Genesis Leans on Older Driver Aids to Avoid Chip-Related Delays

Need to also account for cars the OEMs stopped making entirely in 2021~2022, and or drastically reduced the numbers of. As has been stated, many factories were shuttered during the pandemic. I've read that ford pivoted away from passenger cars and stuck with Trucks/SUV/Luxury vehicles (price margins made sense) as a means to deal with the chip shortages.

Tesla doesnt have the number of vehicle types to stop specific model production or shutterer entire factories during economic downturns.

Ford on the other hand could, and might have had "just enough" radars. Speculation yes, but thats what makes internet debates fun. It was a hypothesis I've hybernated on until USS got the axe. I know I'd read articles about Continental having major issues in 2021 and they supply just about everyone.

 

[maggit13]

UPDATE:
Took delivery on Friday and my Model Y has the ultrasonic sensors as did any of the cars I saw in the lot. I'm happy that i got them on mine.

 

[DrGriz]

UPDATE:
Took delivery on Friday and my Model Y has the ultrasonic sensors as did any of the cars I saw in the lot. I'm happy that i got them on mine.

22 or 23 model year?

 

[maggit13]

22 or 23 model year?

22, tail end of this year, which is fine. keeps my insurance lower

 

[CWT3LR]

ultrasonics have a few meters range at best

From Bosch website for automotive sensors, for its best sensor:​

5.5 m​

detection range

15 cm​

minimum detection range (with exact determination of distance)

3 cm​

object presence detection

 

[Bladerskb]

I questioned this also back then, people pushed back. I don't think there is much evidence radar sensors were in short supply back then, as it seemed like only Tesla was removing them in mass (there were some automakers removing some ADAS features, but that doesn't directly point to radar). There were chips in short supply and the lumbar many manufacturers were removing (just like in this case with USS).

Radar WAS in short supply, Alot of OEMs were holding off car with radar or delivering them without Radar and without the ADAS feature. ADAS is an integratal part of almost ALL ADAS features. Not just radar, but also parking cameras and adas cameras.

Remember other OEMs have a way bigger production demands than Tesla.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Need to also account for cars the OEMs stopped making entirely in 2021~2022, and or drastically reduced the numbers of. As has been stated, many factories were shuttered during the pandemic. I've read that ford pivoted away from passenger cars and stuck with Trucks/SUV/Luxury vehicles (price margins made sense) as a means to deal with the chip shortages.

Tesla doesnt have the number of vehicle types to stop specific model production or shutterer entire factories during economic downturns.

Ford on the other hand could, and might have had "just enough" radars. Speculation yes, but thats what makes internet debates fun. It was a hypothesis I've hybernated on until USS got the axe. I know I'd read articles about Continental having major issues in 2021 and they supply just about everyone.

You are right, there is a possibly they did a more higher level vehicle mix change to address any shortages, but I just find it unlikely that there would be no indication of a radar specific change for other manufacturers if there really was an industry-wide shortage, given there were obvious indications for other sensors and chips (like lumbar and USS).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Radar WAS in short supply, Alot of OEMs were holding off car with radar or delivering them without Radar and without the ADAS feature. ADAS is an integratal part of almost ALL ADAS features. Not just radar, but also parking cameras and adas cameras.

Remember other OEMs have a way bigger production demands than Tesla.

Can you link to some specific examples? Back then I asked people and while many claimed that, none were able to point to specific examples of radar being removed specifically. For the ADAS, features being removed were higher end packages (which made sense given the chips that supported them were widely reported to be in short supply), but they kept the lower end features and kept the front radar sensor (as like the BMW and Hyundai examples pointed out earlier). If the front radar was the part with the shortage, why would they keep that part around?

 

[daktari]

Can you link to some specific examples? Back then I asked people and while many claimed that, none were able to point to specific examples of radar being removed specifically. For the ADAS, features being removed were higher end packages (which made sense given the chips that supported them were widely reported to be in short supply), but they kept the lower end features and kept the front radar sensor (as like the BMW and Hyundai examples pointed out earlier). If the front radar was the part with the shortage, why would they keep that part around?

Here on Norway, Kia offered faster delivery for EV6s with reduced ADAS functionality.

Audi Q4s were delivered faster without TACC and 360 cams and Sonos stereo.

Skoda Enyaq customers were adviced to skip 360 cam and TACC also to speed up delivery and that worked for those who did. They got a dummy lens withou cameras behind. Also delays on the illuminated grille and Canton stereo.
Cars ordered spring 21 still not delivered...

ID.4 same as above. Waiting times for å new order is at least Q2 23 at best (almost no electric extras, manual seats etc). Factories for VSG has been closed on different occasions, both China but lately wiring harness from Ukraine was lacking.

iXs were delivered with lumbar adjust and massage seats only on driver side instead of both as specified/ordered. Delays for H&K and B&W equipped cars.

Source: personal emails different FB owner groups and Norwegian EV forums.

 

[daktari]

Even the affordable Cupra Born at NOK 300.000,- something has side USS even if it is lacking a 360 setup.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Here on Norway, Kia offered faster delivery for EV6s with reduced ADAS functionality.

The Kia uses HDA 2 just like the Hyundai above, presumably they still have HDA (which keeps the front radar)?

Audi Q4s were delivered faster without TACC and 360 cams and Sonos stereo.

Skoda Enyaq customers were adviced to skip 360 cam and TACC also to speed up delivery and that worked for those who did. They got a dummy lens withou cameras behind. Also delays on the illuminated grille and Canton stereo.
Cars ordered spring 21 still not delivered...

That sounds like an upstream chip that controls both. Are they bundled in a package? Do they still offer features that still use the radar (like FCW and AEB)? The BMWs seem to do that. Do you know if they actually removed the radar unit?

ID.4 same as above. Waiting times for å new order is at least Q2 23 at best (almost no electric extras, manual seats etc). Factories for VSG has been closed on different occasions, both China but lately wiring harness from Ukraine was lacking.

iXs were delivered with lumbar adjust and massage seats only on driver side instead of both as specified/ordered. Delays for H&K and B&W equipped cars.

Source: personal emails different FB owner groups and Norwegian EV forums.

 

[LorentzTorque]

Please stop with the “raw photon count” BS.
No camera measures that. There are gazzillons of photons hitting each pixel in order to create enough charge for the circuitry to detect it.
Indeed, there are instruments that measure raw photon count but they are Tesla size (and those are the small ones) and cost tens, if not hundreds, of Teslas. Those instruments are quite useful in quantum physics research.
I understand that “raw photon count” sounds cool but it is an absolute, total BS in the Tesla context.

Technically you could detect individual photons with a photomultiplier tube, which can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars depending on what you're looking for... But yeah, they're not using those in Teslas, either. Bundling enough of them together to make even a low-resolution "camera" would probably bring the cost and size to at least the scales you mentioned. And it would be practically useless for the application anyway. Basically just a fancy saturated photodiode at normal light levels.