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Tesla Rip Off- Full Self Driving

Is it fair Tesla is selling full self driving when it is nowhere near a reality?

  • Yes

    Votes: 106 37.7%
  • No

    Votes: 180 64.1%

  • Total voters
    281

Brenthazen555

Member
Dec 14, 2016
5
18
Destin, Florida
I bought a Tesla X, 60 kw in Nov 2016 with all the options. Musk, at that time, stated that full self-driving should be complete by the end of 2017, so I purchased the $3000 option. Having been almost 1.5 years into my lease of 3 years and it being unlikely that this Full Self Driving will come out sometime soon, I called Tesla to see if I could apply that $3000 to the $4500 it costs to upgrade the battery to 75 kw. They said no! How does a company charge you for an option, not deliver the option, and still refuse to either give you your money back or apply to other alternative options that are available through a software update?
 

number12

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 16, 2016
1,536
769
Tesla
I bought a Tesla X, 60 kw in Nov 2016 with all the options. Musk, at that time, stated that full self-driving should be complete by the end of 2017, so I purchased the $3000 option. Having been almost 1.5 years into my lease of 3 years and it being unlikely that this Full Self Driving will come out sometime soon, I called Tesla to see if I could apply that $3000 to the $4500 it costs to upgrade the battery to 75 kw. They said no! How does a company charge you for an option, not deliver the option, and still refuse to either give you your money back or apply to other alternative options that are available through a software update?

Do you the money?
Following FSD option on a 3 year lease with ~13kw upgrade with 1.5 years left?
 

welcomewagon

Member
Aug 3, 2017
242
171
Dallas, TX
I get what your saying, but at the same time, it is mind boggling to me that anyone would think Full Self Driving would be available within only a year or 2. Tesla is definitely in the wrong for offering a non-existent feature, but anyone that is, for lack of a better word, dumb enough to think their car is going to be autonomously driving them around town anytime soon had it coming.
 

Skotty

2014 S P85 | 2020 3 P19"
Jun 27, 2013
2,511
1,852
Kansas City, MO
I get what your saying, but at the same time, it is mind boggling to me that anyone would think Full Self Driving would be available within only a year or 2. Tesla is definitely in the wrong for offering a non-existent feature, but anyone that is, for lack of a better word, dumb enough to think their car is going to be autonomously driving them around town anytime soon had it coming.

I don't know. Seems like a lot of folks thought this, even folks at Tesla. I've been highly skeptical myself, but few others have shared my extreme skepticism.
 

welcomewagon

Member
Aug 3, 2017
242
171
Dallas, TX
I don't know. Seems like a lot of folks thought this, even folks at Tesla. I've been highly skeptical myself, but few others have shared my extreme skepticism.
It's just common sense. There are literally so many edge cases that the software is nowhere even CLOSE to being able to handle. Roundabouts, bicycles, construction zones, pedestrians, unmarked lanes, on and on and on. Hell, it can't even react to a clearly marked stop sign or a traffic signal.

How can you see that and think that literal Full Self Driving would be available any time soon? Doesn't matter what Tesla or anyone else is saying, it makes no sense, and time has proven that correct.
 

JayyyDeee

Member
Apr 2, 2016
193
139
Canada
I get what your saying, but at the same time, it is mind boggling to me that anyone would think Full Self Driving would be available within only a year or 2. Tesla is definitely in the wrong for offering a non-existent feature, but anyone that is, for lack of a better word, dumb enough to think their car is going to be autonomously driving them around town anytime soon had it coming.

I suppose you're right... obviously we cant believe anything Elon promises. I mean he should have known that Elon literally lies to build hype ;)
 

WillK

Member
Dec 8, 2016
123
147
Milwaukee, Wi
Back then maybe not fair. I ordered oct 2017 with eap but not FSD. My sales guy indicated FSD might be a ways off. And then I read enough to know eap was also nott ready. No regrets on eap.

Totally fair today. I think people looking at the cars now have easy access to data that you could only find in the forum back in the day.
 

Az_Rael

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,643
8,827
Palmdale, CA
I get what your saying, but at the same time, it is mind boggling to me that anyone would think Full Self Driving would be available within only a year or 2. Tesla is definitely in the wrong for offering a non-existent feature, but anyone that is, for lack of a better word, dumb enough to think their car is going to be autonomously driving them around town anytime soon had it coming.

You have to remember what it was like in October 2016. AP 1 was already pretty solid, and Tesla had just announced a new system with 8(!) cameras that was going to be up to the AP 1 level by December 2016. Then they released this awesome video of a Tesla driving itself in town, dropping its passenger off and parking itself! They also announced they would do a self driving demo across the country by the end of 2017. Wow, with all the new hardware, Tesla already has AP 1 mostly figured out, they for sure will soon be surpassing it with EAP (surely in a few months max), so full self driving features will be shortly behind, right? That was even “confirmed” in a now infamous Elon tweet.

That is what the feeling here in the forums was back then. And really, no one knew we would still be waiting for AP 1 parity today let alone actual Enhanced Autopilot. So I don’t blame folks who bought into the hype and jumped in for FSD. Even ones with leases.
 

Ben W

P85 #61, Roadster #108
Feb 27, 2009
657
545
Santa Barbara, CA
I tood delivery of my Model 3 two months ago with FSD purchased, and considered it partially a goodwill donation to the cause, and partially a way to keep Tesla's feet to the fire to eventually deliver the functionality. (If no one purchased it, Tesla wouldn't feel much obligation to deliver it.) They do NOT want to be in a situation where they have to refund tens of thousands of customers; I'm surprised Tesla offered FSD at all to leaseholders, given the near-zero chance that FSD would be meaningfully available in a 3-year time frame. (I intend to keep my car for eight years or so, and I do think Level 4 FSD is realistic within that time frame, which was part of my decision.)

OTOH, I will be flabbergasted if Level 4 FSD is available by 2020, though I do expect to see some differentiation between "FSD" and non-FSD packages before then. For instance, we could see onramp-to-offramp FSD (Level 3 autonomy) as part of the "FSD" package, but not as part of standard Autopilot. I would expect this by 2019-2020. Surface-street FSD (in whitelisted areas and good conditions) will probably not be ready til 2021-2022, and Level 4 FSD in the general case (excluding extreme weather or very difficult roads/conditions) probably won't be ready til 2023-2025, and almost certainly will require substantial hardware advances to AP2: faster computers, more cameras and/or radar, possibly lidar.

I actually nearly held off buying my Model 3 to wait for"AP3", but I'm pretty sure the federal tax rebates will be gone by then, and also I think pre-buyers of AP2 FSD will likely inherit these upgrades for free (or at the very least be refunded the $3k) if AP2 proves insufficient to the task. I still own my "vintage" 2012 Model S, which drives (er, is driven) like a charm, and plan to upgrade it to a new S or X once "AP3" materializes, or once FSD is meaningfully enabled.

Tangentially I've also wondered whether an ulterior motive of SpaceX's proposed global internet constellation is to provide reliable real-time communications specifically to bolster Tesla's FSD systems. There could be some real synergy there.
 
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Ben W

P85 #61, Roadster #108
Feb 27, 2009
657
545
Santa Barbara, CA
I don't know. Seems like a lot of folks thought this, even folks at Tesla. I've been highly skeptical myself, but few others have shared my extreme skepticism.

Regardless of Tesla's technical capabilities, in this short of a time frame the legal hurdles are probably more of a barrier than the technical hurdles. Even if AP2 FSD worked perfectly in the lab on day 1, they'd have a heck of a time getting it bureaucratically approved in time for 3-year leaseholders to enjoy it. Or do you think (knowing Elon) they might just release it as soon as it's ready, and ask forgiveness afterward?
 

TaoJones

Beyond Driven
Nov 10, 2014
3,064
2,857
The Americas
In the Fall/Winter of 2016 and Spring of 2017, we were told and shown multiple things in a short period of time that a) were not accurate and b) many people based purchase decisions upon.

Here's a short list:

1. AP2 would be at parity with AP1. Remains false to this day.
2. FSD demonstrated in a Model S via video 12/2016. It was not disclosed that the video was effectively staged after how many tries?
3. Included supercharging would go away for all orders after 1/15/2017 delivered by 4/15/2017. A few days after 5/15/2017, including supercharging returned and all cars charged were credited back in full. The only remaining difference is that cars so ordered after 1/15/2017 and delivered after 4/15/2017 no longer retain included supercharging when sold to subsequent owners.
4. Owners whose 90Ds were in the queue in February/March were told they could upgrade to 100Ds (for the customary fee) but would lose included supercharging. This proved false given the 5/15ish disclosure a few weeks after that group got their cars.
5. Cross country FSD trip would occur at the end of 2017, then 2018, then...

Suggesting that people should disregard all of that *AT THE TIME* to come to the conclusion that FSD wouldn't exist AT ALL 2 years later is absurd. We were told a larger set of things that turned out to be false. FSD was just part of it and NOBODY outside Tesla knew the gap between AP2 and AP1 would be so disturbing (some would say wobbly) upon release.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Here's how Tesla doesn't get successfully sued or have to make significant reparations: All they have to do is deliver a single FSD feature - doesn't matter which one - within the 3-year lease window and that's that. Or they may just refund the small number of $3,000 customers and be done with it.

However, given the commitment to a new SoC/board, and with the progress Karpathy is making, we may yet be pleasantly surprised later this year and next (board not expected for a bit, yet).

However however, what will remain at issue is the degree to which AP2 owners will be satisfied, and where the line will be drawn for functionality across AP2, AP2.5, and the Model 3 platform (see interior camera as an example of one difference there).
 

Astraviel

Member
Mar 4, 2018
178
302
Vancouver, BC
OP has a point and I agree with them. If I paid for something that wasn't delivered then I would want my money back. The service has failed to deliver what was purchased. You are not buying an investment into FSD when choosing it from the order form on the Tesla website. You are buying functionality. If it never comes to fruition you should be entitled to a refund.
 

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