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Tesla Rip Off- Full Self Driving
- Thread starter Brenthazen555
- Start date
For private individuals, it's still years away. For taxi duty, it's probably coming.
General Motors doesn't always hit their delivery targets, but it's rare when they don't.
Normally, if the delivery target date is ambiguous, GM doesn't give a date.
GM has made two statements about the Cruise AV (tentative formal name of the Bolt AV variant):
- It will be here sooner than you think - CEO Barra
- It will be available in 2019 - GM President Ammann
You're asking for a $3K credit toward a battery upgrade, when you didn't actually pay $3K for FSD? You only paid the residualized amount.
whitex
Well-Known Member
OP was not asking for $3K cash, simply remove a $3K non-functioning option on the leased car and use it towards a different option on the same leased car. So using your language (which I don't think is the correct term, but so be it), he was only asking for the "residualized amount" of $3K since the battery stays with the car at the end of the lease as FSD would.
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Tesomega
Member
[QUOTE="
Here's how Tesla doesn't get successfully sued or have to make significant reparations: All they have to do is deliver a single FSD feature - doesn't matter which one - within the 3-year lease window and that's that. Or they may just refund the small number of $3,000 customers and be done with it.
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I would argue that they show the existing owners of the FSD they are are submitting the necessary validation results to the authorities (by the defined standards and not by saying we do this behind the scenes), here in california there are 0 cars to the evidence.Or simply put give the owners of the FSD the feature and say it is in BETA till approvals are received.
Here's how Tesla doesn't get successfully sued or have to make significant reparations: All they have to do is deliver a single FSD feature - doesn't matter which one - within the 3-year lease window and that's that. Or they may just refund the small number of $3,000 customers and be done with it.
[/QUOTE]
I would argue that they show the existing owners of the FSD they are are submitting the necessary validation results to the authorities (by the defined standards and not by saying we do this behind the scenes), here in california there are 0 cars to the evidence.Or simply put give the owners of the FSD the feature and say it is in BETA till approvals are received.
They didn't sell their leases but rather put them up as collateral. Like putting up your house to get a mortgage.
People aren't willing to lend to Tesla at a decent rate without some specific asset backing it up.
whitex
Well-Known Member
I'm curious. How exactly is a lease valued as collateral? Is it all the money people owe them and/or the cars they own at the end of the lease? Say they leased out a P100D, they gave the lessee $150K, the residual is $85K - how much is that lease worth? The customer probably owes $80K in payments over 3 years but that is subject to risk if the customer defaults, and they own an $85K car at the end which may or may not be worth $85K. What dollar value does such a lease represent?
He's asking for $3K worth of credit towards purchasing a new $4,500 upgrade, even though he didn't pay $3K. That was my point.
"I could apply that $3000 to the $4500 it costs to upgrade the battery to 75 kw"
whitex
Well-Known Member
On the same leased vehicle, therefore he's only getting benefit from the battery upgrade for the remaining duration of the lease (and if he buys it at the end, he pays the residual which included the rest of the $3K. Not just that, he's willing to pay the additional $1,500 for the battery upgrade without increasing the residual, so that part he'd losing the residual value ($800?) if returning the car.
If it helps you think about it another way, had he equipped the car with the battery upgrade instead of the FSD at the time or lease origination, the price of the car would have been $1,500 more and the residual would have been ~$800 more, so he would have paid ~$700 more plus interest. What he's asking to do now is to pay the extra $1,500 rather than $700, so Tesla still wins.
Tesla doesn't adjust the price of upgrades for lease customers based on remaining months (perhaps a genius idea for the future!).... Any customer (lease or loan or clear title) that asked for that upgrade would be told it's $4.500. So the estimated length of use is not really relevant. He's asking for a $3K discount on a $4,500 upgrade.
Isn't it at the edge of legality to show a video of a car which drives completely on its own, offer the FSD option for money, but not deliver it for years?
There should be some sort of class action suit against Tesla for misleading the buyer.
Of course i didnt but that option, didn't seem logical, but I can see people getting confused
There should be some sort of class action suit against Tesla for misleading the buyer.
Of course i didnt but that option, didn't seem logical, but I can see people getting confused
zanary
Active Member
I don't think so.
(1) The owner made the choice to purchase it. No one forced him/her to pay for it
(2) You understood that it is controlled by regulatory body so they have the final say in its release.
(3) You understand that it's going to be a while before it's feature complete (this right now appears at the end of 2019)
(4) The video shows you what it will be capable of when #3 has been completed, and if and when governing body approves it (#2 above).
Ultimately, those who have FSD will eventually get it, however it's up to your local government to decide when they feel comfortable to allow it.
There was nothing misleading for those who who read, understood, and accepted all of the disclosures.
Regardless the good news is that if you have FSD software, you'll get upgraded to the new FSD Computer some time this year, and then the software will be installed, but activation will depend on your local jurisdiction.
Take a look at what's happening with NoA in parts of Europe with the latest 2019.16.2. The software is installed, however it now shows that it's disabled in certain countries... more than likely their jurisdiction has changed their minds on NoA while they do more research.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Are those for private ownership or for a taxi service? I'm thinking taxi service. Also, look at those big a$$ sensors on the car. Dang. Imagine the looks people would give you driving around town in that thing.
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I understand your points, but what's the benefit of giving the buyer the choice of buying it, say in 2016 when in 2019 there is still no single feature from FSD? Let alonrle coast to coast self driving. Lmao
I mean, you can always purchase the FSD later. It wouldn't put Tesla in a bad spot selling something that isn't there.
When the option is available from a software point of view and legal point of view, the FSD could just become available in the account to be bought?
I just dont get why someone should/would pay in advance for something that he might never see...
Of course people should read all disclaimers, but the video and what has been promised lead people to believe Tesla more than disclaimers.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I am not saying this is what happened, but it is possible that Tesla actually did think that they were close to FSD back in late 2016 if they had a FSD prototype (as seen in the 2016 FSD video). So the FSD demo video and selling the FSD on the website would certainly fit that theory. And then Tesla had a setback but continued to sell the feature because they were confident that they could still pull off FSD "soon" even if it were a bit later than originally planned. And we know Tesla had a setback in 2017 when they struggled to replicate AP1 parity on AP2 so that also fits. Tesla's plan was probably to replicate AP1 parity and then port over their prototype FSD code. But when they struggled to do the first part, it delayed everything. Tesla then dropped their code that wasn't achieving AP1 parity in favor of machine learning and Neural Nets which did yield fruits and is the right approach for FSD.
zanary
Active Member
What it comes down to is choice. Everyone has the choice and you decision to purchase or not is based on your ability to make that choice
As individuals, we make decision every single time, some good, some bad, some based facts and figure, some based on your love for a product/design/brand/statement/cause, etc...
(1) You could wait until it's available and then purchase. No harm in that, and the system allows for that.
(2) You can purchase at time of vehicle. No harm in that.
Ultimate, you may never understand and appreciate the decision that resulted in why someone wanted to purchase it early.
For the record, I purchased FSD for both my 2016 Model X, and 2017 Model S. I don't regret purchasing it, and I feel for me I made the right choice. But ultimately I was given the power to make that choice. Presented with info, data, and how I felt about the Tesla brand resulted me being comfortable with that choice.
"I just dont get why someone should pay in advance for something that he might never see..."
Understanding human behavior is a difficult topic. You may never just "get" it. You just need to know that everyone is able to make a decision, and they have the power in which to decide to spend the money or not.
AirKuhl
Member
I purchased FSD because the Tesla sales person told me to my face that it "might be as long as 6 months, but it'll be out by then". They told me that in December 2016.
So sure, there are disclaimers and caveat emptor and all that, but a Tesla employee looked me in the eye and lied, or more kindly, let's assume they had incorrect information. Either way, I don't think disclaimers are really all that powerful considering.
I bought a fully optioned car for a large sum of money, referred several others (for which Tesla kindly comped me), and planned to buy the roadster. But between FSD vaporware and yellow screens, it's really difficult to talk myself into remaining with Tesla. They have flat out lied to me, or let's say misrepresented the truth, on several occasions during my ownership. I prefer to remain a Tesla customer but they are making it really difficult. I love my MS but there are plenty of other great cars out there in this type of price range, where this type of behavior towards their customers would be considered abhorrent.
I realize they have a serious OPEX and cash flow issue, but this is short sighted on their part. I hope they realize that customers who paid for features based on their faith in the company, and have waited patiently for months to give them a chance to figure out a resolution to a visual defect that the customer sees every day, are valuable customers. Many of these customers that would otherwise reliably purchase more Tesla products will quietly disappear into some other car and have fond memories of the Tesla car and maybe not so fond memories of the Tesla company.
So sure, there are disclaimers and caveat emptor and all that, but a Tesla employee looked me in the eye and lied, or more kindly, let's assume they had incorrect information. Either way, I don't think disclaimers are really all that powerful considering.
I bought a fully optioned car for a large sum of money, referred several others (for which Tesla kindly comped me), and planned to buy the roadster. But between FSD vaporware and yellow screens, it's really difficult to talk myself into remaining with Tesla. They have flat out lied to me, or let's say misrepresented the truth, on several occasions during my ownership. I prefer to remain a Tesla customer but they are making it really difficult. I love my MS but there are plenty of other great cars out there in this type of price range, where this type of behavior towards their customers would be considered abhorrent.
I realize they have a serious OPEX and cash flow issue, but this is short sighted on their part. I hope they realize that customers who paid for features based on their faith in the company, and have waited patiently for months to give them a chance to figure out a resolution to a visual defect that the customer sees every day, are valuable customers. Many of these customers that would otherwise reliably purchase more Tesla products will quietly disappear into some other car and have fond memories of the Tesla car and maybe not so fond memories of the Tesla company.
They also lied to me same way but also said my late December 2016 S would have AP1 features on delivery or by December 31 2016 at the latest.
Tesla has issues with honesty. It makes it impossible to do business with them again or strongly recommend them to friends. There is a reason demand is dying despite all levers being pulled.
Tesla has issues with honesty. It makes it impossible to do business with them again or strongly recommend them to friends. There is a reason demand is dying despite all levers being pulled.
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