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Tesla "S3" vehicle mention???

Discussion in 'Model S' started by JoshG, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. JoshG

    JoshG Member

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    California DMV seems to have recently added "2012 Tesla Model S3" (sic) to their list of cars eligible for Clean Air (HOV) Sticker program. This is in addition to "2012 Model S" that is already approved.

    Any guesses what this means?
    - typo?
    - reference to "Gen III"? (seems odd for it to be approved as a 2012)
    - a code for the Model X?
    - a new code for the remaining 2012 Roadsters? (seems odd as the 2011 list shows the right name "Tesla Roadster" as approved),
    - maybe a designation for the Performance version of the Model S (unlikely as Roadsters and Roadster Sport both were just shown by DMV as "Roadster" despite motor/output differences)
    - something else entering testing, like another variant of Model S (4wd maybe)?

    source is here: Eligible Vehicles - Single Occupant Carpool Lane Use Stickers

    I know I checked that list a few weeks ago and there was no "S3", just Model S... so I'm pretty sure this is a recent addition.
     
  2. timdorr

    timdorr Model S P1698 / VIN 1657

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    I'm guessing it's code for the X, since they can drive those around now, and perhaps a typo at the same time. 3rd vehicle = S3.
     
  3. NielsChr

    NielsChr Member

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    #3 NielsChr, Dec 3, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
    A guess this could be due to the future "variants" as elon have talked about.
    or it could be that the sig is aproved as a "S" and the regular is aproved as a "S3", they are soon to begin shipment of reg ?

    - could also be AWD or a wagon or other variant of the S - I would love to see a wagon like this blue
    Tesla Model ST Theophilus Chin
    I asume this will give more headroom for a rear passengers - both 2 row and 3 row :)
     
  4. NielsChr

    NielsChr Member

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    You are right, something have happen newly
    The old aproval was from 12. June 2012
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2012/tesla_pc_a3740006r1_0_z_e.pdf

    the new one is from 12. October 2012
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2012/tesla_pc_a3740006r2_0_z_e.pdf

    the different is that ZEV TIER have changed from III to V, I don't know anything about CA laws and regulations - mayby someone can inlight about difference between the ZEV TIER ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    This also list 2 model S - both 2WD
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/EPAGreenGuide/txt/all_alpha_12.txt
     
  5. fengshui

    fengshui Member

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  6. shokunin

    shokunin P85 & S40

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    Screen Shot 2012-12-03 at 4.43.21 PM 1.png

    Interesting... Tier V = range >300 miles / Must be capable of replacing 285 miles (UDDS ZEV range) in ≤ 15 minutes per section 1962.1(d)(5)(B)

    I wonder if the new "variant" is going to be a new pack in excess of 100kw.
     
  7. fengshui

    fengshui Member

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    For the 300 mile requirement, maybe.

    For the Fast Refueling, they may have demoed a battery swap in under 15 minutes sufficient to qualify for Tier V. Not sure if they actually have to deploy Fast Refueling, or just have the capability.
     
  8. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    That's UDDS range AKA LA-4 or the old EPA city cycle. Tesla already got 320 miles for the Model S on the old combined EPA test (which includes both the UDDS and harder HWFET highway test).

    The only challenge is the charging speed requirements. Using Tesla's supercharger gives 50% in 30 minutes or 25% in 15 minutes which is equal to about 320mi*25% = 80 miles UDDS in 15 minutes. Tesla must have added battery swapping or something similar to jump from Type III to Type V (which means Tesla's getting the same credit as hydrogen cars!).

    http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/testing/dynamometer.htm
     
  9. JoshG

    JoshG Member

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    #9 JoshG, Dec 3, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
    I like the theories that it's either:
    a) Model S with the supercharger capability (dual chargers)
    or
    b) Model S with 3rd row of seats (Fengshui above thinks that DMV needs a new designation if the number of passengers in a vehicle changes). Only problem with that is that it would mean that ADDING the rear-facing seats would change your DMV/ARB classification? Doesn't seem right for something that can be added after production.
     
  10. clea

    clea Member

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    you do know that supercharger capability is not the same as having dual chargers, right?
     
  11. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    That's a confusion I frequently see. This should be on a sticky somewhere or Tesla needs to make it more clear on their advertising.
     
  12. fengshui

    fengshui Member

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    Indeed. Superchargers are effectively an off-board nonuple-charger (9) that bypasses the chargers in your vehicle.
     
  13. evmile

    evmile Member

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    I think they have implemented 12 chargers or 120 kW for the Supercharger based on what Elon said at the presentation. So I assume there is a 120 kWh pack in the future.
     
  14. fengshui

    fengshui Member

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    That sounds right. I couldn't remember what he said at the presentation, so I back calculated from the charging rate of 90kW I found documented somewhere.
     
  15. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    #15 richkae, Dec 4, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
    The power of the supercharger and the size of the pack are not necessarily related.
    A 120kW supercharger does not imply the existence of a 120kW pack.
    The maximum charge rate of the current packs is not known ( to us, Tesla may know )

    - - - Updated - - -

    Note that the fast refueling capacity requirements are very severe.
    For type III: To replace 95 miles of range in 10 minutes would be 570 miles in an hour.
    The Model S - which at 265 miles EPA range for the 85kWh battery, would require a charge rate of 182kW
    ( its a good thing that the 200+ mile range qualifies it for type III without the fast charging requirement )

    For type IV: replce 190 miles in 15 minutes would be 760 miles in an hour.
    Again the Model S would require a charge rate of 244 kW

    For type V: to replace 285 miles in 15 minutes ( 1140 per hour ) would be 365kW.

    It doesn't matter if Tesla comes out with 100kW packs or 200kW packs - they have a long way to go to get to 244kW or 365kW charge rate.
    At 400volts 244kW requires 610 amps. The cable and pins required to conduct that will be monstrous.
    When I last read that document, it seemed clear to me that type IV and type V were designed so that fuel cell vehicles would qualify and EVs ( without battery swapping ) would not.
     
  16. NielsChr

    NielsChr Member

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    #16 NielsChr, Dec 4, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
    If we combine all the known facts by now, it seams obvious to me that tesla have got 3 phase charging working in a car with aprox 100-120 KW battery.
    the name S3 - could very well be a 3 phase version (and a new charge plug) or
    3 stars goes to S3
    * fast car
    * long range
    * fast recharge.

    then add AWD and you got a S4 killer car

    Im happy I have bought some TSLA :)
     
  17. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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    Maybe
    "Tesla Model S SS" (supersport):biggrin:
     
  18. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    "S3" was noticed in a California incentive eligibility site. I doubt that is where we would see signs of some European model.
    (As would be implied by the idea of an on-board 3 phase charger...)

    Anyways, you are free to dream, but I suspect a different explanation.
     
  19. NielsChr

    NielsChr Member

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    Yes I know, 3 phase charging (AC) have in principle nothing to do with fast super charging (DC)

    But seening a car with longer range (+300 EPA), and faster re-charge time than current announced super charger, make me belive that they have developed at new charge plug.
    The current charge port can not handle the load from a TIER V, while a new developed charge port would - so they might have developed a new port with room for 3 phase (AC)

    pure speculation though.
    I might be wrong, but the car was appoved 12. October and I asume we will soon see the specs. - my guess will be around 18/12-2012
     
  20. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Personally, I am thinking either S3 is a "red herring" (just some meaningless code in an incentives spreadsheet), or some other body configuration.
    Tesla has dropped hints that we could see other body styles coming on the S platform. Wagon / Mini-Van / Convertible / ???
    My guess (although I could be wrong) is that the current battery pack size, and Supercharging specs are what we will have for a while...

    Further supporting the "red herring" theory is that it was listed as a 2012 code. We are running out of time for Tesla to introduce something different as a 2012.
     

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