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Tesla Semi’s EPA range rating will simply never exist…Here’s why

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It's not all Regen, at least not battery Regen per se ... going up the hill a lot of it is Kinetic Energy converted to Potential Energy "stored" in the mass of the entire vehicle, batteries included, and even some in the human occupant . Then the PE is converted to KE coming back down the hill. I daresay it's 100% efficient roundtrip from KE to PE to KE. All vehicles have it, not just EV's, even people have it.

But I think the driver skill is in fact to keep that PE conversion as efficient as possible, you want to minimize inefficient energy transfer elsewhere. If the driver applies acceleration to maintain constant speed going up hill, then you're converting battery energy, and then invoking battery Regen going down, losing some energy to roundtrip Regen inefficiency (or otherwise you' may lose it to increased air drag from faster speeds). So on smaller rolling hills, it's more efficient to actually minimize Regen by letting the vehicle slow down and speed up through KE-PE-KE conversion, though too fast you increase air drag. But on the big climbs like the Grapevine, you have no choice but to invoke some Regen to not go too fast, but it's only like 4% of the battery coming down the other side (all the lost energy was steady road and air drag losses that are the same whether on the flats or the hills).

So I marvel more at nature's battery (Potential Energy), 2nd the likely skill of the driver probably trained to make the most use of Regen, PE, and speed to maximize hypermiling, and distant 3rd the Regen.
Follows is a comment I made a few years ago to a Tech Forum Youtube video regarding regen versus coasting.

On rolling hills an option to select a smarter cruise control mode could be a real winner. For example if you set your cruise control to 60MPH, allow the car maintain 55 miles an hour if it detects it is going uphill then on the downhill side allow it to coast (in neutral) up to 65 or even 70MPH (you could get a ticket) if downhill speed exceeds 65/70 speed engage drive mode and use regen. If downhill speed does not exceed 65/70 continue to coast until 55MPH is reached on the next hill then switch from neutral to drive mode to maintain 55 until the next downhill road section.. The parameters of 5 below going uphill and 10 above going downhill could/should be selectable parameters. Basically have the cruise be smart enough to switch automagically in/out of neutral/drive and use regen when necessary to keep the downhill speed safe. All of this could be done by the driver but would not be very relaxing way to drive. Having this cruise control option should extend range and not add much, if any, travel time to the trip.




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3 years ago
Hyper Mile mode
 
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IIRC from the presentation, 500 miles in under 8 hours, including an 1/2 hour break.
So average speed was 500/7.5 = 66 mph

However, they also mentioned slow traffic in L.A so the average speed outside of L.A was over 66 mph

You can watch the video on x0.25 speed (gear icon) and most of the time you see the 50's some 60s. You see this when the driver turns their head and then from behind the hat brim then the speed shows up on the left display screen.


Another math perspective. And some more speed interpretations.

 
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Another math perspective. And some more speed interpretations.
That fellow is awesome, but he is presuming that the very small fraction of video showing speed is representative of the entire trip. It could be, but it does not have to be true. I'm inclined to think that it is more likely NOT a random sampling, but I'll just stick with the point that should not be in dispute: the sampling may be non-random and non-representative.
 
With the existing configuration, hitting 500 miles for every trip is, likely not repeatable. You would not be targeting a high 90% starting charge to start and would not want to be below 10% at the destination as well.. This may be possible with LFP, but the whole weight dynamic changes; disconnecting the motor at cruising speed could be a good advantage.
 
Or...trucking lobby, the same one that prevented smog controls on these very dirty vehicles
What do you mean by this? I saw this theme throughout a few threads. Heavy Duty diesel engines have significant NOx, CO, NH3, CH4, and CO2 regulations in place.

The Clean Trucks Initiative (EPA) just released updated rules for the 2027 model year that are a 90% reduction from todays legal NOx limit. GHG Ph3 proposal will be released in the next few months which will increase fuel economy requirements in 2027 from the current Ph2 in 2027.

I worked to certify HD engines with CARB (and EPA, although its mostly a rubber stamp once CARB approves) for a few years.



To the topic of the thread, the reason there is no EPA rating for heavy duty is simply due to the amount of configurations available and use cases. Its all over the map so its nearly impossible to create values that have any meaning to a consumer. For EVs I believe they should use the cycles used to determine PHEV range for vocational and longhaul applications so you can compare between manufacturers. Maybe no one would actually drive the exact route, but its still relative and allows a comparison without tricks.

There is a version of fuel economy for heavy duty that is covered in the GHG regulations. This is performed for every vehicle sold and is a simulation based calculation based on a number of manufacturer inputs (audited regularly) for things like coefficient of drag, tire rolling resistance, driveline efficiency, BSFC maps, etc. This is the only way to reasonably test all the various configurations as there are only so many chassis and powertrain dynos available for vehicles of this size!

In short, heavy duty engines and vehicles are heavily regulated and are pushing the limits of commercially available technology. There are also standard tests to evaluate driving distance and fuel economy on “representative” routes for vehicle use. These aren’t published like the passcar window stickers, but they are still tracked and reported.
 
What do you mean by this? I saw this theme throughout a few threads. Heavy Duty diesel engines have significant NOx, CO, NH3, CH4, and CO2 regulations in place.

The Clean Trucks Initiative (EPA) just released updated rules for the 2027 model year that are a 90% reduction from todays legal NOx limit. GHG Ph3 proposal will be released in the next few months which will increase fuel economy requirements in 2027 from the current Ph2 in 2027.

I worked to certify HD engines with CARB (and EPA, although its mostly a rubber stamp once CARB approves) for a few years.



To the topic of the thread, the reason there is no EPA rating for heavy duty is simply due to the amount of configurations available and use cases. Its all over the map so its nearly impossible to create values that have any meaning to a consumer. For EVs I believe they should use the cycles used to determine PHEV range for vocational and longhaul applications so you can compare between manufacturers. Maybe no one would actually drive the exact route, but its still relative and allows a comparison without tricks.

There is a version of fuel economy for heavy duty that is covered in the GHG regulations. This is performed for every vehicle sold and is a simulation based calculation based on a number of manufacturer inputs (audited regularly) for things like coefficient of drag, tire rolling resistance, driveline efficiency, BSFC maps, etc. This is the only way to reasonably test all the various configurations as there are only so many chassis and powertrain dynos available for vehicles of this size!

In short, heavy duty engines and vehicles are heavily regulated and are pushing the limits of commercially available technology. There are also standard tests to evaluate driving distance and fuel economy on “representative” routes for vehicle use. These aren’t published like the passcar window stickers, but they are still tracked and reported.
You sound knowledgeable. My impression was that there have been no major emissions equipment on semi trucks, namely catalytic converters, where as cars have had them since 1974.

I see that changed in 2006. I wonder why it took so long...

I recall Elon saying at the Semi event how dirty Diesel class 8 trucks were. Perhaps he was misinformed. Perhaps old trucks are grandfathered, and can be rebuilt without complying to the new rules you mentioned.

A few years back, got involved with an imported stationary winch which was converted to propane. US built, with smog equipment intact. The EPA required all kinds of testing and certs and it had to be sent back to England or be confiscated. It was a ginormous red tape hassle that was impossible to resolve without a complete cert program costing 7 figures. We sent it back.
 
Heavy Duty diesel engines have significant NOx, CO, NH3, CH4, and CO2 regulations in place.
What you call 'significant,' I call lax.
Neither labels are particularly helpful. Quote numbers, and compare to SULEV and LEV

Of what NH3 regulation do you speak ?
Of what CO2 regulations do you speak ? These

Screenshot 2023-01-30 at 2.59.07 AM.png

are a joke, if I am parsing the units correctly. I come up with 6 - 9 gallons per 25 miles in a semi truck rated for 80k lbs, meaning 2.5 - 4 miles a gallon

And as for Nox regulations, maybe you have heard of diesel-gate, et al ?
 
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You sound knowledgeable. My impression was that there have been no major emissions equipment on semi trucks, namely catalytic converters, where as cars have had them since 1974.

I see that changed in 2006. I wonder why it took so long...

I recall Elon saying at the Semi event how dirty Diesel class 8 trucks were. Perhaps he was misinformed. Perhaps old trucks are grandfathered, and can be rebuilt without complying to the new rules you mentioned.

A few years back, got involved with an imported stationary winch which was converted to propane. US built, with smog equipment intact. The EPA required all kinds of testing and certs and it had to be sent back to England or be confiscated. It was a ginormous red tape hassle that was impossible to resolve without a complete cert program costing 7 figures. We sent it back.
Your understanding is not totally correct. Its true diesel trucks (and cars) do not have a catalytic converter (TWC - Three Way Cat) but thats because they only work well for petrol and natural gas engines. I won’t get into the details, but it has to do with diesel engines not targeting stoichiometric air/fuel ratios.

Because this solution was not applicable to diesel engines, they were not required. The emission limits for heavy duty trucks were achieved through different means and regulations started in 1974. 1991 saw the first tightening of particulate matter (soot) regulations, 1998 saw the beginning of NOx limit tightening. 2007 and 2010 were also big emission steps. 2007 was mostly achieved through increased EGR use and DPF filters, 2010 saw the addition of SCR systems.

This is just a general run down of EPA regulations (not CARB) but the intent was just to show the engines are far from unregulated. You can debate the regulations did not phase in fast enough and were not stringent enough (I agree) but all of these changes were fairly game changing for their time.

2027 will be another 80% reduction in NOx from the 2010 levels which is a very large step. At this point the most damaging pollution from the trucks is from the brakes and tires to put it in perspective! At the last SAE conference there was a lot of talk about measuring particulate matter from tires and brakes and how to minimize the impact as its becoming the biggest concern for health impacts.

Like a lot of what Elon says it is kind of a half truth due to missing context. New trucks are ~30x less polluting than pre 2010 trucks. The industry issue is that over 50% of the trucks on the road are pre-2010 vehicles which makes the average high. This problem can’t be solved by reducing pollution on new trucks, so industry has proposed incentivising the retiring of old vehicles as each one retired has a giant impact on reduction. Kind of a cash for clunkers proposal.

The industry proposing this may seem odd, but to tackle the problem only focusing on new vehicles only will never offset the gross polluters. Also, development of new engine technologies is incredibly expensive and the sales numbers decrease of the more expensive engines with no incentive to replace their old vehicle with the new.

So yes, the overall fleet average is pretty bad but not even EVs will help solve the problem unless the older vehicles are removed from service! Its also disingenuine to compare a new EV to a vehicle from the early 2000s when even new diesels are significantly cleaner! At least compare a modern diesel to an EV as the EV will still have an obvious advantage.

Hopefully this helps give some insight (keep in mind I left out the fuel economy regulations). It just rubs the people who have worked hard to significantly reduce the pollution from trucks the wrong way when false information is spread that new trucks are dirty and nothing is being done about it.

There is a reason I moved from ICE to EV development though as the future path is clear!
 
What you call 'significant,' I call lax.
Neither labels are particularly helpful. Quote numbers, and compare to SULEV and LEV

Of what NH3 regulation do you speak ?
Of what CO2 regulations do you speak ? These

View attachment 901270

are a joke, if I am parsing the units correctly. I come up with 6 - 9 gallons per 25 miles in a semi truck rated for 80k lbs, meaning 2.5 - 4 miles a gallon

And as for Nox regulations, maybe you have heard of diesel-gate, et al ?
You can’t compare the numbers to LEV or SULEV. The emissions are recorded over a completely different drive cycle and reported using a different method. Passenger car and Heavy Duty have almost nothing in common so it would make no sense to use the same methods.

Passenger car/truck emissions are measured on a chassis dyno on drive cycles that represent how those vehicles are used. The emissions are measured in a mass/distance unit.

Heavy duty engines are measured on an engine dyno because there simply aren’t enough heavy duty chassis dynos available to run the testing and the engines are put in many different types of vehicle applications. Because of this and the many different power levels an engine can be equipped with the emissions are measured in a mass/power-time unit as the distance can vary. Hopefully this helps explain a bit why you can’t really compare them. Also I never have seen a Camry pulling a 60k load or running a PTO….its just not the same considerations!

Its OK to think the standards aren’t strict enough or maybe they should have pushed harder earlier, but that does not mean there is no regulation at all.

Of course I know of dieselgate and the other cheating scandals. Its a total embarrassment for the people who worked hard to actually meet the rules in a legal manner. I have always maintained I will be happy to explain everything I do to the DOJ if asked, I might make mistakes but they are not nefarious in nature. I’ve pushed to self-report mistakes found, and offer the solution and timeline to implement. I like to sleep with a clean consious! I’m glad WVU was able to document the cheating everyone knew was going on. It simply was not physically possible for VW to meet the emissions and get the performance without an SCR. Everyone knew this.

In industry we say there was pre-dieselgate and post-dieselgate world. In the pre world you were assumed innocent until proven guilty. In post world you are assumed guilty until you can prove innocence. Trust me, everything has changed!

NH3 and CO2 regulations are covered under the Greenhouse Gas regulations. I don’t think your math is correct converting. An average loaded truck on a longhaul route gets about 8mpg. If you are way under that you wouldn’t be able to sell any vehicles.

8mpg seems low, but its way better than it was when I started working on the engines! 10mpg has been the longtime goal to achieve.

If you want to see some interesting vehicles you can look up the SuperTruckII program.
 
Charging twice a day would roughly double the amount of cycles on the packs (depending on the amount you discharge). Still not sure if Tesla is using NMC or LFP batteries, but NMC generally has a much lower number of cycles before replacement.

It will be interesting to see how various battery chemistries fare with the abuse and cycling of a heavy duty truck. NMC is more energy dense but you will need to replace more often. LFP lasts longer and handles more abuse but is less dense. Which is better? Depends on application most likely.
 
Still not sure if Tesla is using NMC or LFP batteries, but NMC generally has a much lower number of cycles before replacement.
Tesla previously has said that nickel is needed for long range applications. And since weight is a concern with the Semi (the heavier the vehicle, the lighter the load it can haul) it is likely NMC.
 
Tesla previously has said that nickel is needed for long range applications. And since weight is a concern with the Semi (the heavier the vehicle, the lighter the load it can haul) it is likely NMC.
Thats what I assume too. Replacing that pack is going to be expensive! Unless there is some secret sauce (possible) you are going to need to replace the pack at least once in the lifetime if not more.
 
Thats what I assume too. Replacing that pack is going to be expensive! Unless there is some secret sauce (possible) you are going to need to replace the pack at least once in the lifetime if not more.

I know they regularly overhaul or replace motors in those things. Transmissions etc also. Does anyone have any data on what that cost is over miles? (I have this vague recollection that I read it somewhere, maybe in this forum!)