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Tesla Semi Competition

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Ran across this spy shot online of a potential competitor to the Tesla Semi.

View attachment 354204

I find it strangely odd that Ohmman's initial post was in a jocose spirit only to see it metamorphose into a serious and sober discussion of true semi competitors. I guess accountants aren't the only group who can turn mirth and merriment into profound thoughts. :confused::confused:
 
I'm thinking that it's too early to put market activities such as described here under the heading of Tesla Semi osbourning the industry:
Volvo Trucks will lay off 3,000 workers because of UAW strike at Mack Trucks (with video) - FreightWaves

The explanation here is that the Class 8 semi manufacturing segment has seen 6 quarters of especially high volume manufacturing and demand, leading to a glut of new trucks available to buy, and leading to a slow down in manufacturing.

But I'm expecting more of this as companies that only build diesel trucks start finding demand slowing down; I'd expect to also be seeing articles on freightwaves about the cost of ownership of electric commercial trucks, the startup costs for companies operating out of distribution centers (so the trucks can recharge overnight and be ready to go again tomorrow), and I haven't started to see those yet.

I expect the cost of ownership articles to start up early to mid next year, as test fleets are starting to be delivered and put to use.
 
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I'm thinking that it's too early to put market activities such as described here under the heading of Tesla Semi osbourning the industry:
Volvo Trucks will lay off 3,000 workers because of UAW strike at Mack Trucks (with video) - FreightWaves

The explanation here is that the Class 8 semi manufacturing segment has seen 6 quarters of especially high volume manufacturing and demand, leading to a glut of new trucks available to buy, and leading to a slow down in manufacturing.

But I'm expecting more of this as companies that only build diesel trucks start finding demand slowing down; I'd expect to also be seeing articles on freightwaves about the cost of ownership of electric commercial trucks, the startup costs for companies operating out of distribution centers (so the trucks can recharge overnight and be ready to go again tomorrow), and I haven't started to see those yet.

I expect the cost of ownership articles to start up early to mid next year, as test fleets are starting to be delivered and put to use.
I do think that Tesla is doing intentional psychological warfare here. They put out a case for carving 25 cents off the cost per mile. To the extent that the industry believes that is within the realm of possibility over the next couple of years or so, it is a very serious threat to the value of their existing diesel fleet. Add to that a credible case for self-driving platoon follow vehicles. So the rational response is to defer capital expenditure on new diesel vehicles by making due with an older fleet.

As we've discussed before, most semis get rebuilt after about 7 years of service. Maybe a 15 yo truck could be rebuilt a second time if necessary. (Anybody have some knowledge on this?) That could be cheaper than buying a new truck that is destined never to be rebuilt at all because it will be obsolete in less than 7 years. So my point is that rebuilding provides and opportunity to extend the life of a truck but obsolescence is a serious risk of buying new.
 
I do think that Tesla is doing intentional psychological warfare here. They put out a case for carving 25 cents off the cost per mile. To the extent that the industry believes that is within the realm of possibility over the next couple of years or so, it is a very serious threat to the value of their existing diesel fleet. Add to that a credible case for self-driving platoon follow vehicles. So the rational response is to defer capital expenditure on new diesel vehicles by making due with an older fleet.

As we've discussed before, most semis get rebuilt after about 7 years of service. Maybe a 15 yo truck could be rebuilt a second time if necessary. (Anybody have some knowledge on this?) That could be cheaper than buying a new truck that is destined never to be rebuilt at all because it will be obsolete in less than 7 years. So my point is that rebuilding provides and opportunity to extend the life of a truck but obsolescence is a serious risk of buying new.

Yeah - I'm expecting something like that to start. My thinking has been that the electric class 8 market would need to achieve annual production on the order of 10-20% of the diesel market (30-60k units/year) before we'd see serious delays on new purchases of diesel trucks.

That thinking being a mix, from the customers point of view:
1) do they 'work' (can the customer substitute in the electric truck and still get everything done with it they need to do)
2) what are the actual cost savings? (the real question - are the cost savings significant enough to change over new purchases? are the cost savings enough to prematurely change over the existing diesel fleet?)
3) can I buy electric trucks when I want to (is the industry ramped sufficiently that electric trucks are actually available to purchase?)

I figure these initial fleets will answer 1 and 2. It'll be good for the electric truck industry if the early adopters talk to the media and publish results from their testing (yes, they work. our actual cost savings is <bleh>).

Then it's down to (3), and I figure somewhere around 10-20%, fleet buyers will suddenly realize that a new diesel purchase at that point will be a stranded asset (good version), or an anchor that helps take the company down, and they'll stop buying diesel. They will also start nagging electric truck makers to ramp faster, dammit!


But I could be wrong. Maybe 3 doesn't need to happen - only 1 and 2 - to stop the purchase of new diesels by fleet buyers. They instead run the trucks longer, do more maintenance, buy used diesel trucks, etc.. to close the gap until electric truck replacements are readily available.


Random odd thought. Because these are income producing assets, if the cost savings prove real in actual usage for high usage fleets, I think we'll have several years where the electric truck makers are ramping, where truck manufacturers can auction their weekly / monthly build plan. Offer the trucks at whatever list price they want, and since the orders will be WAY WAY higher than the build capacity, run a weekly / monthly / quarterly auction (whatever period works well) and let buyers pay over list price (based on auction results) to move to the head of the list and get their trucks now.

This will naturally direct built trucks to the really high volume users, and will also generate extra cash flow for the manufacturers that they will need to ramp battery production (mostly) and the rest of their infrastructure to satisfy that demand as fast as possible.
 
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That thinking being a mix, from the customers point of view:
1) do they 'work' (can the customer substitute in the electric truck and still get everything done with it they need to do)
2) what are the actual cost savings? (the real question - are the cost savings significant enough to change over new purchases? are the cost savings enough to prematurely change over the existing diesel fleet?)
3) can I buy electric trucks when I want to (is the industry ramped sufficiently that electric trucks are actually available to purchase?)

I think the elephant in the room for electric trucking is infrastructure. Tesla has done a great job with Superchargers, but the rollout of Megachargers is a whole 'nother challenge. Some trucks have very constrained routes from one company owned depot to another. Getting beyond that will be very capital intensive, and Tesla is capital constrained.
 
Yeah - I'm expecting something like that to start. My thinking has been that the electric class 8 market would need to achieve annual production on the order of 10-20% of the diesel market (30-60k units/year) before we'd see serious delays on new purchases of diesel trucks.

That thinking being a mix, from the customers point of view:
1) do they 'work' (can the customer substitute in the electric truck and still get everything done with it they need to do)
2) what are the actual cost savings? (the real question - are the cost savings significant enough to change over new purchases? are the cost savings enough to prematurely change over the existing diesel fleet?)
3) can I buy electric trucks when I want to (is the industry ramped sufficiently that electric trucks are actually available to purchase?)

I figure these initial fleets will answer 1 and 2. It'll be good for the electric truck industry if the early adopters talk to the media and publish results from their testing (yes, they work. our actual cost savings is <bleh>).

Then it's down to (3), and I figure somewhere around 10-20%, fleet buyers will suddenly realize that a new diesel purchase at that point will be a stranded asset (good version), or an anchor that helps take the company down, and they'll stop buying diesel. They will also start nagging electric truck makers to ramp faster, dammit!


But I could be wrong. Maybe 3 doesn't need to happen - only 1 and 2 - to stop the purchase of new diesels by fleet buyers. They instead run the trucks longer, do more maintenance, buy used diesel trucks, etc.. to close the gap until electric truck replacements are readily available.


Random odd thought. Because these are income producing assets, if the cost savings prove real in actual usage for high usage fleets, I think we'll have several years where the electric truck makers are ramping, where truck manufacturers can auction their weekly / monthly build plan. Offer the trucks at whatever list price they want, and since the orders will be WAY WAY higher than the build capacity, run a weekly / monthly / quarterly auction (whatever period works well) and let buyers pay over list price (based on auction results) to move to the head of the list and get their trucks now.

This will naturally direct built trucks to the really high volume users, and will also generate extra cash flow for the manufacturers that they will need to ramp battery production (mostly) and the rest of their infrastructure to satisfy that demand as fast as possible.
You are right about these being income producing assets. That's why response will be much sharper in this space than the private vehicle market.

I like the idea of auctions. That actually minimizes the potential for asset stranding. The auction price has an equilibrium at the present value of the vehicle as an income producing asset. So this eliminates the price per mile advantage that early adopters would otherwise enjoy. Moreover, the value of that price advantage is effectively transferred to the truck maker.

For example, assume a 25c/mile savings at list price (and assuming charging infrastructure is in place needed to realize that savings), then spread that out over say 8 years, 125k miles per year. At an 8% discount this has a present value of $194k. Thus, a buyer that is fully convinced of this value would be willing to bid upto $194k over the $180k list price. Tesla pockets the premium bidders are willing to pay, while trucking competitors that lose the auction are not at a serious cost disadvantage to those who won.
 
You are right about these being income producing assets. That's why response will be much sharper in this space than the private vehicle market.

I like the idea of auctions. That actually minimizes the potential for asset stranding. The auction price has an equilibrium at the present value of the vehicle as an income producing asset. So this eliminates the price per mile advantage that early adopters would otherwise enjoy. Moreover, the value of that price advantage is effectively transferred to the truck maker.

For example, assume a 25c/mile savings at list price (and assuming charging infrastructure is in place needed to realize that savings), then spread that out over say 8 years, 125k miles per year. At an 8% discount this has a present value of $194k. Thus, a buyer that is fully convinced of this value would be willing to bid upto $194k over the $180k list price. Tesla pockets the premium bidders are willing to pay, while trucking competitors that lose the auction are not at a serious cost disadvantage to those who won.

And I figure in practice, using your example, the auction price is likely to fall somewhere between 0 and $194k, and be closer to $194k the longer the queue is and that a company will need to wait to get to the head of the queue (especially with queue jumpers paying extra to jump the queue).

I was, without doing any math, thinking that there'd be a $50k premium worth paying to move up. For a high volume use truck, I expect we'd see something like 1/2 to 3/4 (pays for the infrastructure, and still captures some of the value for the truck buyer - how high is too high before truck buyers stop paying the premium? :))

The thing is - with as big of an opex advantage as I'm expecting, even when the industry is producing 300k units/year, there will still be a queue due to aggressive retirement (at least from the really high volume installed base) that will stretch for years into the future. 300k/year just handles today replacement level, so there will still be value in conducting an auction to allow queue sitters to buy there way to the head of the list.


One element of the auction that I think is important, is to make it as transparent as possible. For this reason, I would tend towards frequent small auctions, over infrequent large auctions. So weekly auctions of 6k units (given an annual build rate of 300k), over monthly or quarterly auctions.

And make the bids (anonymous) - price and volume - public information (at least to the bidders) so everybody knows what bids won last week and can better play the game this week based on the price action in the past.

Lastly - the truck maker needs to show that extra revenue going back out (mostly at least) as capital equipment and rapidly expanding capacity.


The thing about 300k units / year - I'm assuming an average of 1MWh worth of batteries per truck (some will be lower, some will be higher, though I realize even longer range trucks haven't been announced yet); that's 300GWh/year worth of batteries needed for that market. Tesla, or whoever, is producing those trucks has a lot of expansion in their battery production to serve that market.

I think a better estimate of the consumption of battery packs in the commercial truck market is more like 2-4x that 300 GWh/year. I get there figuring the electric class 8 market will get to at least 600k units / year (replacing the installed base aggressively, plus cheaper stuff will be more widely used than are used today), and then all of that consumption gets matched again by the class 3-7 markets (many more units, with big but smaller batteries in those trucks).

There goes that TWh/year consumption - did you want some batteries for SX3Y Roadster and the Class 1/2 pickup truck? :)

Or for any other market than North America? Damn - we're gonna need ANOTHER TWh or 2 / year. (On a current worldwide battery production of more like 100 GWh/year for transportation).
 
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News on test fleet progress:
NFI, Penske reach electric-driving milestones with Freightliner test trucks - FreightWaves

Two different test fleets not being directly operated by the manufacturer are now past 10k miles of electric class 8 service!

(yes, you read that right - 10k miles).


Still that's progress and the first real world mention I've seen of actual efficiency in practice. One of the two fleets quoted int he article mentions they're seeing between 1.7 and 2.4 kWh per mile and they're running 70k loads (I'm assuming that's total vehicle weight).
 
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News on test fleet progress:
NFI, Penske reach electric-driving milestones with Freightliner test trucks - FreightWaves

Two different test fleets not being directly operated by the manufacturer are now past 10k miles of electric class 8 service!

(yes, you read that right - 10k miles).


Still that's progress and the first real world mention I've seen of actual efficiency in practice. One of the two fleets quoted int he article mentions they're seeing between 1.7 and 2.4 kWh per mile and they're running 70k loads (I'm assuming that's total vehicle weight).
Wow, that milage is not good. I don't think they understand how to get good range from an EV drivetrain. It looks like they are just tossing batteries into a diesel frame and hoping it will all be dandy. If Tesla were to post 1.7 to 2.4 kWh/mile, I'd be very disappointed.
 
News on test fleet progress:
NFI, Penske reach electric-driving milestones with Freightliner test trucks - FreightWaves

Two different test fleets not being directly operated by the manufacturer are now past 10k miles of electric class 8 service!

(yes, you read that right - 10k miles).


Still that's progress and the first real world mention I've seen of actual efficiency in practice. One of the two fleets quoted int he article mentions they're seeing between 1.7 and 2.4 kWh per mile and they're running 70k loads (I'm assuming that's total vehicle weight).

Those are pretty said electric truck demos. Only 130-150 miles per day? Not even a full day of driving, they have to use two trucks in relay? Only 10,000 miles in four months? Despite the cheery quotes (and $16m subsidy) it looks ridiculous that any for-profit trucker would want these electric trucks. Apparently their truck charger can't recharge quick enough during the day to make the trucks useable all day.
 
Wow, that milage is not good. I don't think they understand how to get good range from an EV drivetrain. It looks like they are just tossing batteries into a diesel frame and hoping it will all be dandy. If Tesla were to post 1.7 to 2.4 kWh/mile, I'd be very disappointed.

Last I saw on Tesla's website, they're saying <2 kWh for the efficiency on the truck (full load of course). But I haven't (yet) seen any specifics from anything resembling real world use. I expect Tesla to hit that number, but the larger progression I'm watching for is where we start getting people operating the trucks, that aren't the manufacturer, reporting on what they're seeing.

The progression I'm expecting with electric semi's goes something like this:
- POC / demonstration scale projects (like these two)
- real world efficiency and operational cost metrics (we'll need a lot of these from many projects at increasing scale)
- electric semi manufacturing, across the industry, increases to (my guess) about 50k / year

The first two provide the economic cover companies need to try these out. The experience of trying them out for themselves on their own routes and workloads, plus the larger industry reaching decent scale (10-20% of current diesel market is my guess), will combine to Osbourne most (but not all) of the existing Semi industry.

Unfortunately for the existing Semi industry, that "most" will cause everybody that doesn't have scale in the new market (electric semi's) to lose profitability and head for bankruptcy (a businesses scaled to be profitable at 100k trucks / year, such as DTNA, is going to be in a world of hurt when their business shrinks to 10k / year; or even 50k / year).


For the buyers of these vehicles, I expect they're going to need to see a lot of their peers reporting on results. Some will be ready to jump in first, but most will be waiting to see what sorts of routes and use cases these work for. So far, it's drayage. Which is nice, but isn't yet tackling more common use cases.

Early days, but at least the days have started counting - somebody is doing something real with electric trucks, somewhere.
 
Putting this here - first signs of life in the electrified construction vehicle segment:
Volvo Trucks creates electric-powered construction concepts for Europe - FreightWaves

From the picture, I get the idea that the initial vehicles will be more like trucks for moving stuff from here to there (rather than graders, backhoes, and stuff).

At least it's somebody thinking about this and now going beyond just thinking about it (even if the # of vehicles probably doesn't need a second hand to count them all :D)
 
Semi competition - as long as we generalize away from Class 8 semis and incorporate the class 5-7's or so.

NYC Sanitation Department ready for Mack’s first electric refuse truck - FreightWaves

Another instance of electrified commercial trucks entering a "prove it" sort of pilot. In my thinking, these pilots are the first phase of adoption of electrification of commercial transport, in which companies that buy these vehicles prove to themselves that an electric truck "works" for their application.

"Works" covers everything involved in using the truck to accomplish the work. It gets to where the work needs doing, it loads, it carts to stuff to where it's going. It doesn't break down constantly. It can be maintained over time. The fuel cost is (whatever it turns out to be) from which a financial justification can be made (purchase price has to be equal, or some amount higher to make the business case work).


These prove it pilots are still aways out from companies making the first decision - a subset of new purchases will be electric; and further yet from the second decision - all new purchases will be electric; and further yet from the third decision - I need to replace all of my non-electric vehicles NOW because they're too expensive and putting me at a competitive disadvantage.

But it's a really important start to see many of these going on.

The next thing I'm looking for are companies conducting these pilots being interviewed about what they're seeing and experiencing in the pilots (my ideal case - the trucks drop into existing work and directly replace existing trucks trivially. Oh - and the financial benefits are proving to be huge!).
 
I'm seeing a theme of hydrogen as a fuel for class 8 semis showing up repeatedly.

Hydrogen costs could fall quickly for heavy-duty trucks - FreightWaves

This being the most recent example. I'm skeptical of any mobile application involving the use of hydrogen due to the risks and penalties associated with any accidents involving hydrogen. And yes - I realize that a hydrogen future is seen by many in the fossil fuel industry as a different refinement of fossil fuels, that enables them to continue mining, refining, and selling fossil fuels.

I think my primary takeaway here is that we're far enough away in time from either BEV or Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles that anybody can tell a reasonable sounding story around their technology, and both are currently in a POC stage with customers.
 
I'm seeing a theme of hydrogen as a fuel for class 8 semis showing up repeatedly.

Hydrogen costs could fall quickly for heavy-duty trucks - FreightWaves

This being the most recent example. I'm skeptical of any mobile application involving the use of hydrogen due to the risks and penalties associated with any accidents involving hydrogen. And yes - I realize that a hydrogen future is seen by many in the fossil fuel industry as a different refinement of fossil fuels, that enables them to continue mining, refining, and selling fossil fuels.

I think my primary takeaway here is that we're far enough away in time from either BEV or Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles that anybody can tell a reasonable sounding story around their technology, and both are currently in a POC stage with customers.
I don't see hydrogen working very well for trucking. The whole premise seems to be around a lack of charging infrastructure. But hydrogen needs enormously more complicated infrastructure than BEV trucks. If there is an advantage it will be short lived. When you look at what actually makes a battery most valuable in an EV, it comes down to how frequently the battery is cycled. So you actually want heavy duty (read, frequent cycling) EV applications. The cost of fueling BEVs will be substantially less than hydrogen trucks, and HD EVs will be the most economical of EVs. Fleet operators that develop their own charging networks and integrate charging logistics into their operations will have a per mile cost advantage. Hydrogen won't be able to match it.
 
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I don't see hydrogen working very well for trucking. The whole premise seems to be around a lack of charging infrastructure. But hydrogen needs enormously more complicated infrastructure than BEV trucks. If there is an advantage it will be short lived. When you look at what actually makes a battery most valuable in an EV, it comes down to how frequently the battery is cycled. So you actually want heavy duty (read, frequent cycling) EV applications. The cost of fueling BEVs will be substantially less than hydrogen trucks, and HD EVs will be the most economical of EVs. Fleet operators that develop their own charging networks and integrate charging logistics into their operations will have a per mile cost advantage. Hydrogen won't be able to match it.

I haven’t seen anyone try to justify hydrogen Semis against Tesla Semi assuming Tesla’s initial Semi specs for range, efficiency and charging time are correct, which they undoubtedly will be (and will improve over time). Instead the supposed benefits of hydrogen are typically based on pessimistic assumptions for EV truck range and charging time.

With Tesla’s specs and the laws of physics, which make an EV truck more efficient than hydrogen, I don’t see how hydrogen trucks possibly compete.
 
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I agree with both of you on the hydrogen vs BEV class 8 semis. I bring along stuff that I see going on, and one theme I've been seeing with more frequently in trucking is the idea that hydrogen fuel cells are preferable to battery electric. With the current state of production worthy electric or hydrogen fueled class 8 semis (there aren't any at scale), everybody can say whatever they want :)

I'd be happier with anybody producing a 1k/year level battery electric truck. That's really still not scale, but at least then we'd have some real world experience today to put some real numbers on how they perform. And I'd really rather see the battery trucks get to that scale before the hydrogen trucks (I think it likely) - in both cases, you can build limited trucks with baked in infrastructure (such as a drayage application, or anywhere trucks are out and back from a central depot) as a demonstrator, while still not addressing the more general use case.
 
Not sure where to put this - decided to add it to this Semi Competition thread.

For those interested, here's an article that does a nice job of sizing the US market. They most subdivide into two subgroups - the Class 8 tractors, and the class 4-7 medium duty tractors / trucks. This will give you some idea of units over the last few years, projections of units for the next few years, and some of the factors that people have identified about why units have increased and decreased over this window.

New trucks, used trucks and trailers all suffering from the same affliction - FreightWaves
 
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Not sure where to put this - decided to add it to this Semi Competition thread.

For those interested, here's an article that does a nice job of sizing the US market. They most subdivide into two subgroups - the Class 8 tractors, and the class 4-7 medium duty tractors / trucks. This will give you some idea of units over the last few years, projections of units for the next few years, and some of the factors that people have identified about why units have increased and decreased over this window.

New trucks, used trucks and trailers all suffering from the same affliction - FreightWaves
Truck sales is an up and down business, Volvo released their redesigned truck in 2018 and many large companies ordered trucks, once those orders were fulfilled the market slowed down. It’s like that all the time, I’ve learned to stay away from purchasing when the market is hot, the mark up is around 20-25k per truck during those times.