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Tesla Service Response to Battery Range Issue...

h0mersimps0n

Member
Oct 14, 2018
11
8
Baltimore, mD
I have a 2018 Model 3 Performance model. About 23,000 miles on it. Only supercharged 6-7 times total in life of battery, only ever been to 100% SOC 4 or 5 times ever in life of battery.

today my 100% SOC reads a range of 276 miles. My daily SOC 90% is 248.

I'm taking my M3 in for service in two weeks for battery breather replacements (bad clunks when going up my local mountains) and rear trunk seal problem (rear trunk fills up when driving in hard rain).

I added that I was not happy about my battery capacity and this was the text response I got from Tesla service:

"XXX this is Tesla service. We have run several remote tests on the high voltage battery and the battery management system. The management system performs calculations to determine the expected range of the battery. All Tesla batteries will have some loss over time and will level out. While reviewing the data we noticed that the average watt hour per mile is 340 which is almost 100 over the rated 245whpm this is in conjunction with outside temperature, charging habits and the use of the vehicles accessories would explain the management systems range calculation. After reviewing all the data it was determined that the battery and management systems are working as designed and a service visit for the range concern will not be needed. We will see you XXX to address your other concerns"

I know there are like over 53 pages of discussion on range and batteries in this forum, is this response consistent with the consensus understanding and expectations for these high voltage batteries?

Every ICE vehicle I ever owned never got the EPA rated highway MPG- so look, I get it, I'm a little bit of a lead foot.

I think, overall, speaking for myself and probably a lot of others that Tesla just didn't and doesn't do a very good job of helping people understand how EV range works. I think they play a marketing and PR game with this mileage and 310 should definitely, definitely have an asterisks next to it.

310 mile rating is not actual miles and for those who don't know or understand will be setup for disappointment.

The true fact of these Model 3's is that 310 really means 279 miles of range after the first year of 9-10% degradation then, you can figure you'll only ever charge to 90% SOC, so 250 miles, and will only ever be 70-80% efficient when driving. So, doing that math, people need to understand that real world, actual, factual range of these vehicles is about 188 miles. No ifs, ands or buts.

Don't get me wrong, that's almost 3 hours of driving non stop and I think 188 miles is great, I think it's fantastic and superchargers are amazing as long as you understand you should only use them when at 10%-80% SOC (or risk sitting for a long ass time charging).

But I really, really wish my expectations had been appropriately set before all of this set in. I don't feel like I was duped exactly, I just feel like, despite all the time I've wasted in forums watching people fight over battery tech, numbers, calculations, etc has been wasted and if someone had simply just explained real world what I was buying I'd stop worrying so much about the numbers and just enjoy the ride more.
 
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ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,409
11,956
California
The true fact of these Model 3's is that 310 really means 279 miles of range after the first year of 9-10% degradation then, you can figure you'll only ever charge to 90% SOC, so 250 miles, and will only ever be 70-80% efficient when driving. So, doing that math, people need to understand that real world, actual, factual range of these vehicles is about 188 miles. No ifs, ands or buts.
Lots of "figuring" in here that just doesn't hold true.
You can charge to 100% and use that range literally whenever you need to. That range is not lost to you and you should use it whenever you want. A few 100% charges may actually get you "back" some miles from your BMS having a more accurate picture of your battery's actual capacity.

70-80% efficient is simple to achieve. 90-95% is pretty easy too on long trips. Averaging 340wh/mi in a Model 3 puts you WELL above what most people see. In 100k miles, I've averaged 315wh/mi in my much less efficient Model S.

As they say, "your mileage may vary".

But I really, really wish my expectations had been appropriately set before all of this set in. I don't feel like I was duped exactly, I just feel like, despite all the time I've wasted in forums watching people fight over battery tech, numbers, calculations, etc has been wasted and if someone had simply just explained real world what I was buying I'd stop worrying so much about the numbers and just enjoy the ride more.
Set your display to percentage instead of miles and watch your worries melt away.
 
Last edited:

CharleyBC

Active Member
Jun 28, 2019
1,382
1,559
Talent, OR
Set your display to percentage instead of miles and watch your worries melt away.
I'm about on the edge of deciding to go to percentage. There are threads and threads of anxiety about how many miles at whatever percent charge. But all sorts of things (speed and temp being the biggies in my mind) affect how many watt-hours you use per mile. And if Tesla's math is trying to consider your actual use (like OP's 340) versus the rated rate of use, then it's going to come out different for all of us.

I kinda wish it just said my battery currently has 17.7 kWh or 62.4 kWh (or whatever) in it. But percent is in effect the same thing.

Here's $100. One person can buy more lunches for that same money than another person.
 
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KetchupKilla

Member
Oct 2, 2019
149
178
Massachusetts
I have a 254 lifetime wh/m average with 6800 miles. Most of those through the winter in Massachusetts where I get 270-280 average. During the fall when I got the car I was getting around 230 average. I drove to Canada and got about 270 miles between 100 and recharge at around 10 percent.
 
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mswlogo

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2018
6,019
4,630
MA, NH
I have a 2018 Model 3 Performance model. About 23,000 miles on it. Only supercharged 6-7 times total in life of battery, only ever been to 100% SOC 4 or 5 times ever in life of battery.

today my 100% SOC reads a range of 276 miles. My daily SOC 90% is 248.

I'm taking my M3 in for service in two weeks for battery breather replacements (bad clunks when going up my local mountains) and rear trunk seal problem (rear trunk fills up when driving in hard rain).

I added that I was not happy about my battery capacity and this was the text response I got from Tesla service:

"XXX this is Tesla service. We have run several remote tests on the high voltage battery and the battery management system. The management system performs calculations to determine the expected range of the battery. All Tesla batteries will have some loss over time and will level out. While reviewing the data we noticed that the average watt hour per mile is 340 which is almost 100 over the rated 245whpm this is in conjunction with outside temperature, charging habits and the use of the vehicles accessories would explain the management systems range calculation. After reviewing all the data it was determined that the battery and management systems are working as designed and a service visit for the range concern will not be needed. We will see you XXX to address your other concerns"

I know there are like over 53 pages of discussion on range and batteries in this forum, is this response consistent with the consensus understanding and expectations for these high voltage batteries?

Every ICE vehicle I ever owned never got the EPA rated highway MPG- so look, I get it, I'm a little bit of a lead foot.

I think, overall, speaking for myself and probably a lot of others that Tesla just didn't and doesn't do a very good job of helping people understand how EV range works. I think they play a marketing and PR game with this mileage and 310 should definitely, definitely have an asterisks next to it.

310 mile rating is not actual miles and for those who don't know or understand will be setup for disappointment.

The true fact of these Model 3's is that 310 really means 279 miles of range after the first year of 9-10% degradation then, you can figure you'll only ever charge to 90% SOC, so 250 miles, and will only ever be 70-80% efficient when driving. So, doing that math, people need to understand that real world, actual, factual range of these vehicles is about 188 miles. No ifs, ands or buts.

Don't get me wrong, that's almost 3 hours of driving non stop and I think 188 miles is great, I think it's fantastic and superchargers are amazing as long as you understand you should only use them when at 10%-80% SOC (or risk sitting for a long ass time charging).

But I really, really wish my expectations had been appropriately set before all of this set in. I don't feel like I was duped exactly, I just feel like, despite all the time I've wasted in forums watching people fight over battery tech, numbers, calculations, etc has been wasted and if someone had simply just explained real world what I was buying I'd stop worrying so much about the numbers and just enjoy the ride more.

Does your car have the factory 20" wheels. Officially the range is 300 with 20" Wheels and 322 with 18".

Even though your car was listed as 310 in 2018 Performance was an "Option" versus a Model and was never officially listed. Now it is listed.

276 out of 300 after 24,000 miles is not great. But maybe not panic mode just yet, and probably within "tolerance". Also keep in mind your number is always just an estimate. Also 100% charge in warmer weather might be a little higher.
 

Led Jetson

Member
Sep 13, 2019
34
22
Naples
I have the same exact issue. Just hit 23k miles after a 100 mile drive to Ft Lauderdale airport, and am lucky to get 175 miles or so a charge at best with an average of 294w so far. I am down now over 10% range after I kept bringing up I lost 3%, then 4%, then 5%, then 8% to now 10% that it’s all just normal from Tesla Mobile Service over the course of just over one year or so now.

For those of you who keep saying to put it on percentage. This is the equivalent of sticking your heads in the sand and ignoring any inaccuracies of your bank accounts. Many of us need to make long range trips which is why we bought LR AWD. The fact is, most of us have more money in these cars than our bank accounts, so stop trying to sugar coat real concerns already. My Performance was MSRP’d at 310, so to say it’s normal to lose so much range after you used to have that range, means we have to call it for what it is, which is “Bullshit” on Tesla already.
 

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,409
11,956
California
I have the same exact issue. Just hit 23k miles after a 100 mile drive to Ft Lauderdale airport, and am lucky to get 175 miles or so a charge at best with an average of 294w so far. I am down now over 10% range after I kept bringing up I lost 3%, then 4%, then 5%, then 8% to now 10% that it’s all just normal from Tesla Mobile Service over the course of just over one year or so now.

For those of you who keep saying to put it on percentage. This is the equivalent of sticking your heads in the sand and ignoring any inaccuracies of your bank accounts. Many of us need to make long range trips which is why we bought LR AWD. The fact is, most of us have more money in these cars than our bank accounts, so stop trying to sugar coat real concerns already. My Performance was MSRP’d at 310, so to say it’s normal to lose so much range after you used to have that range, means we have to call it for what it is, which is “Bullshit” on Tesla already.
Good news is you only have 20% more to go before you’re eligible for a battery replacement. Keep on driving! :)
 

lanbo

Member
Mar 29, 2019
55
21
Barcelona
Same problem here. 7% degradation in less than a year. 15000kms.

SC says everything is fine. They recommended a couple of tricks to recover range. Those tricks only made me loss a bit of more range. I guess the battery calibration process found out I have even less capacity than the one previously shown.

Meanwhile, Tesla is paying big money in prizes to affiliates with 1-3% battery degradation that "show how good" batteries are.
 
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h0mersimps0n

Member
Oct 14, 2018
11
8
Baltimore, mD
Thanks for the replies. I'm glad this has stayed constructive. I'd like to add that the area I live in is very hilly.

I'm a cyclist too and know for a fact that in every direction for 20-30 miles from my house is about 80ft-100ft of climbing per mile of cycling/driving including my daily drive to work.

I knew this would affect my EV range because, as I said, it always affected my ICE mpg significantly. I wish Tesla actually didn't modify our estimated range based on driving conditions/habits. It's like a floating variable/calculation for when I take trips to flatter or more hilly areas.

Additionally, I had a thought that maybe having the car give estimates based on average driving conditions/habits makes the nav calculations more accurate - last weekend I took the family on a 205 mile start-finish road trip, and when I punched it into the Nav, the car said I could actually make it to my destination in the Pocono Mountains without any SC stops. False.

Good point on the tires, I did originally have 20" tires on my M3P but after two broken wheels from miniscule road debris hits, have cast them off for 19"s currently with low resistance snow tires on them (what a waste for this winter).

Also, I'd like to add, that when I consider my next EV purchase, likely a Tesla, that when Elon posts 393 miles for the Model S, I know that actually means 393 - 10% - 75% efficient = 265 real miles of range. Again, pretty awesome and solid 4 hours of straight driving means significantly fewer SC stops on longer trips in the northeast or southeast for me.
 

holmgang

Active Member
Sep 9, 2019
1,287
1,290
eu
For those of you who keep saying to put it on percentage. This is the equivalent of sticking your heads in the sand and ignoring any inaccuracies of your bank accounts. Many of us need to make long range trips which is why we bought LR AWD. The fact is, most of us have more money in these cars than our bank accounts, so stop trying to sugar coat real concerns already. My Performance was MSRP’d at 310, so to say it’s normal to lose so much range after you used to have that range, means we have to call it for what it is, which is “Bullshit” on Tesla already.

Actually it's not quite like that. Because indicated range is not actual range. And extrapolation from a small chunk of battery consumption does not equate actual battery capacity.

The only bank equivalence here is looking at the current balance, 3 days worth of spending, and claiming to know how much you'll have left by the end of the month.

***
The marketed range (of ~310) is based on (a) industry-test consumption and (b) full capacity.

(b) When a car advertises a fuel tank of 13.5 Gallons, it is 13.5 Gallons to empty, not to the "L" marker or the warning lamp.

(b) Likewise, you don't eyeball the needle from 3/4th to 1/2th, and extrapolate full tank range from that. You drive the tank out. Or you measure long-range consumption.....

***

(a) If actual consumption varies dramatically from the industry value, then yes there is valid gripe. 340wh/mi from a car rated for 250 driven by a leadfood..... is that unacceptable? That's same as getting 16mph from a 25mph car. Without knowing how much "leadfoot" behavior this is, i'd call it borderline.
 

holmgang

Active Member
Sep 9, 2019
1,287
1,290
eu
...

I knew this would affect my EV range because, as I said, it always affected my ICE mpg significantly. I wish Tesla actually didn't modify our estimated range based on driving conditions/habits. It's like a floating variable/calculation for when I take trips to flatter or more hilly areas.

Additionally, I had a thought that maybe having the car give estimates based on average driving conditions/habits makes the nav calculations more accurate - last weekend I took the family on a 205 mile start-finish road trip, and when I punched it into the Nav, the car said I could actually make it to my destination in the Pocono Mountains without any SC stops. False.
....

It does both.

The battery meter displays range based on standard consumption (~250Wh/mi)

The navigation and energy graph takes into the road elevation AND your driving habits, AND you have the option of averaging that habit over different intervals, to get more representative projections to your actual destination.

***

Over long trips, I've found sometimes I lag those projections, and sometimes I can beat it (with a bit of deliberation, obviously). Which tells me the calculations aren't biased one way or another.

The info is there and it's up to you to use it
 
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Msjulie

Active Member
Jun 26, 2016
2,427
1,738
Monterey Bay Peninsula
I have a 2018 Model 3 Performance model. About 23,000 miles on it. Only supercharged 6-7 times total in life of battery, only ever been to 100% SOC 4 or 5 times ever in life of battery....today my 100% SOC reads a range of 276 miles. My daily SOC 90% is 248.

My car - 2018 Performance with 23317 miles as of this post. It's been to Las Vegas, Palm Springs and a couple other drives requiring supercharging but it's normal weekly life is 25-30 miles a day with level 2 charging one per day. Weekends are 2 * ~74 mile trips with level 2 charging at night on return. 90% charge most of the time.

I noticed something the other day that made me feel better; I knew this but until yesterday my car was showing 80% charge at something like 236 miles. But yesterday it was warm out (like upper 70s) and the %-> charge indicated indicated almost exactly that a full charge would be 300 miles.

It's only anecdotal and all but this is the first time the indicated range is matching up with expectations.

Others have said, and I've been doing this as well for a long bit - show % not miles on the battery indicator to reduce driver stress.
 
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mswlogo

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2018
6,019
4,630
MA, NH
My car - 2018 Performance with 23317 miles as of this post. It's been to Las Vegas, Palm Springs and a couple other drives requiring supercharging but it's normal weekly life is 25-30 miles a day with level 2 charging one per day. Weekends are 2 * ~74 mile trips with level 2 charging at night on return. 90% charge most of the time.

I noticed something the other day that made me feel better; I knew this but until yesterday my car was showing 80% charge at something like 236 miles. But yesterday it was warm out (like upper 70s) and the %-> charge indicated indicated almost exactly that a full charge would be 300 miles.

It's only anecdotal and all but this is the first time the indicated range is matching up with expectations.

Others have said, and I've been doing this as well for a long bit - show % not miles on the battery indicator to reduce driver stress.

I don’t get it, since 236 @ 80% extrapolates to 295 miles @ 100%. So a 5 mile (estimated) improvement made you feel better?
 

Msjulie

Active Member
Jun 26, 2016
2,427
1,738
Monterey Bay Peninsula
I don’t get it, since 236 @ 80% extrapolates to 295 miles @ 100%. So a 5 mile (estimated) improvement made you feel better?

Typo - 216

And yes, anything going upward makes me feel better - rationality has little to do what that here ;)

Also even though I know it's not real, my car was advertised at 310
 

Zcd1

Member
Sep 2, 2018
712
807
Walloon Lake, MI / LaQuinta, CA
...people need to understand that real world, actual, factual range of these vehicles is about 188 miles. No ifs, ands or buts...

Interesting.

The other day in 15 degree F temps and with a 15 mph headwind and 65-80 mph freeway driving, my M3P was getting ~210 miles total range, which sounds about right. So when you state "...188 miles, no ifs ands or buts." , please understand that that's YOUR lead-foot, hilly experience, and doesn't necessarily reflect others' experiences.

I'm also not a slow driver, and have averaged 309 wh/mile in 16K miles, so you must really be legging it every chance you get.

I'll give you dollars to donuts that there's nothing wrong with your battery, and that you've likely lost less than 3% of your total range.

Finally, please do yourself a favor and switch your display to percentage.
 

hcdavis3

HCD3
Mar 3, 2019
1,836
1,069
02571
I have a 254 lifetime wh/m average with 6800 miles. Most of those through the winter in Massachusetts where I get 270-280 average. During the fall when I got the car I was getting around 230 average. I drove to Canada and got about 270 miles between 100 and recharge at around 10 percent.
254 lifetime seems pretty good Killa. I don’t think I’m close to that. I’ll check tomorrow.
 

kkillebrew

Banned
Jun 23, 2019
401
124
austin, tx
Is Tesla telling the OP that the range reduction he is seeing is from both normal battery degradation AND his driving habits? If so does that mean that somehow the OP's driving habits, or a resulting calculation is now permanently part of the car's BMS data as to how range and charge speed are calculated?

I thought the calculated range was based purely on battery SOC and degradation data, and applying that to EPA specified parameters...?
What if he sell the car to someone who drives much more gently... will the range return?
 
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KetchupKilla

Member
Oct 2, 2019
149
178
Massachusetts
Honestly I don't understand why people don't just stay at percent. When you own an ice car you go by a percentage. Maybe not battery but percentage of tank left by a dial or sometimes digital representation. You can go my estimated miles remaining which I did in the wife's car on a 120 mile round trip. Lost 153 miles using that setting. This is why we should never use estimated range left. I do understand the feeling of degredation, I honestly think a lot is the colder weather, it's a new technology and we don't know how things will play out. I honestly don't think it's going to be as bad as we all fear. Change is hard and trying to understand a machine will drive us nuts. I still fret about degredation, but I always try to remember that it's mostly in my head and I'm sure it will work out.
 
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