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Tesla Service Response to Battery Range Issue...

Zorak03

Member
Nov 27, 2018
210
105
Alabama/China
Lots of "figuring" in here that just doesn't hold true.
You can charge to 100% and use that range literally whenever you need to. That range is not lost to you and you should use it whenever you want. A few 100% charges may actually get you "back" some miles from your BMS having a more accurate picture of your battery's actual capacity.

70-80% efficient is simple to achieve. 90-95% is pretty easy too on long trips. Averaging 340wh/mi in a Model 3 puts you WELL above what most people see. In 100k miles, I've averaged 315wh/mi in my much less efficient Model S.

As they say, "your mileage may vary".


Set your display to percentage instead of miles and watch your worries melt away.

from my understanding the displayed range DOES NOT take into account your driving style or temp and bases it off the estimated battery capacity left. Also, the BMS can be off, and if it’s off the car will shut down when the displayed range gets to zero even if the battery actually has more capacity.

Am I wrong here? If I ask Tesla 5 times I get 5 different answers so I don’t know.

If I am right then setting it to % and forgetting about it would be a bad idea. If I’m wrong (which I hope), then it’s definitely the best idea.
 
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dmurphy

Woof.
Dec 7, 2018
3,474
4,682
New Jersey - Morris County
Honestly I don't understand why people don't just stay at percent. When you own an ice car you go by a percentage. Maybe not battery but percentage of tank left by a dial or sometimes digital representation. You can go my estimated miles remaining which I did in the wife's car on a 120 mile round trip. Lost 153 miles using that setting. This is why we should never use estimated range left. I do understand the feeling of degredation, I honestly think a lot is the colder weather, it's a new technology and we don't know how things will play out. I honestly don't think it's going to be as bad as we all fear. Change is hard and trying to understand a machine will drive us nuts. I still fret about degredation, but I always try to remember that it's mostly in my head and I'm sure it will work out.

Every car I've owned in the last 15 years at least, maybe longer, has had an "XX miles to empty" display. *that* is what I use; I don't look at the gas gauge.

Therefore, the percentage setting on the Model 3 seems like a step backwards to me. Road signs on the highways aren't posted in percentages; they're posted in miles. I like to keep my units consistent, for mental sanity.

I leave my display set on miles remaining, and don't worry about it. I know it's only an estimate, and only based on ideal driving conditions, and yet, somehow, I haven't been stranded on the side of the road or had a battery emergency yet.

Amazing how that works.
 
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h0mersimps0n

Member
Oct 14, 2018
11
8
Baltimore, mD
yeah, for all of you who say "just use percentage like you do on an ICE vehicle" I say to you all, that works for ICE vehicles because there is a refueling station, that refuels at a fast, consistent rate throughout the entire capacity of the fuel tank about every 5-10 miles even in the most rural of places.

Could I survive in percentage mode on a daily basis for my daily commute? absolutely! Maybe I will try it anyway.

But, there's no way I'd be day tripping 150+ miles without some calculations and watching the numbers.

... 210, 188, whatever, these cars are not 310 real world miles.

Definitely want to get another Tesla, but not for another few generations of battery tech to work it's way out.
 

diamond.g

Active Member
Nov 5, 2015
2,421
1,361
Moyock, NC
yeah, for all of you who say "just use percentage like you do on an ICE vehicle" I say to you all, that works for ICE vehicles because there is a refueling station, that refuels at a fast, consistent rate throughout the entire capacity of the fuel tank about every 5-10 miles even in the most rural of places.

Could I survive in percentage mode on a daily basis for my daily commute? absolutely! Maybe I will try it anyway.

But, there's no way I'd be day tripping 150+ miles without some calculations and watching the numbers.

... 210, 188, whatever, these cars are not 310 real world miles.

Definitely want to get another Tesla, but not for another few generations of battery tech to work it's way out.
Sounds like you would like the car to show the Energy Tab mileage instead of the fixed EPA mileage. If more and more folk ask for it, they may change the display to do that. And in true Tesla fashion, they would remove the EPA calculation, making it harder to gauge battery health without a tool like SMT.
 
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JBT66

Member
Oct 26, 2018
620
359
Arizona
Percent is great when I’m just driving around town. However on road trips I generally want an actual number. We don’t have THAT many SuperChargers here in AZ so I want to know how far the car thinks it can go. It would be great if it was some what accurate. For a full charge my car started off at 311 went down to 280 around 13000 miles and has slowly crept back up to 289 since that at around 17000.
If my efficiency is good I can make a trip to Phoenix which is about 125 miles from here drive around in town then back down pretty easily. Now that my BMS is potentially off and shows a low amount of miles the car says I can’t do it.
 

Zcd1

Member
Sep 2, 2018
712
807
Walloon Lake, MI / LaQuinta, CA
... these cars are not 310 real world miles.

And as you said, you never got EPA rated mileage on your ICE vehicles either, so what's the difference?

My previous vehicle was EPA rated for 27 mpg on the freeway - I never did better than 25, and mostly got 23-24. If I'd limited myself to 60 mph, then MAYBE it would have hit 27, but who does that?

You've had the car for a while now, so you understand what it can and can't do. It's not difficult to plan for its capabilities.
 

Msjulie

Active Member
Jun 26, 2016
2,427
1,738
Monterey Bay Peninsula
Sounds like you would like the car to show the Energy Tab mileage instead of the fixed EPA mileage.

The singular thing I miss from the loaner Model S was the additional info behind the steering wheel, in specific the energy use gauge. A mini always-present energy app would be appreciated, I don't need a full screen map all the time
 
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Dr. J

Active Member
Aug 23, 2017
1,473
2,687
Fort Worth, Texas
The singular thing I miss from the loaner Model S was the additional info behind the steering wheel, in specific the energy use gauge. A mini always-present energy app would be appreciated, I don't need a full screen map all the time
I find the nav system's trip meter estimated arrival percentage to be most helpful. That number allows me to adjust my driving as needed/if needed to reach my destination with x% remaining--which is really all I care about.
 

Led Jetson

Member
Sep 13, 2019
34
22
Naples
I would only find the "Percentage" helpful if it would have said on the MSRP before buying the car, "you will reach 310 miles zero percent of the time, and not even close to 310 even if you are driving Miss Daisy."

Some of you Telsa Elitists on here throwing out all the math and defending Tesla while people are feeling burned or lets say even just as bit disappointed and want to share their experiences without being attacked, should really read your own posts once in a while. "Oh, just set it on % and set it and forget it," which is easy to do when you are going out to pick up a bottle of Jack Daniels and another dose of a Kool-aide chaser. But some of us have long commutes and paid extra for LR for a reason. We love the car, we don't exactly like the battery issues.

People want to know how many miles they REALLY have and then, HOW many are really left. When you buy a ICE car that says you will get 25 City and 30 Highway, you at least get an idea that you will at least be on the low side if you drive with a lead foot on the highway you will get closer to 25 MPG than 30 MPG, not lose 25% of your tank like it has a leak in it from here to the Kool Aide store.
 
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dmurphy

Woof.
Dec 7, 2018
3,474
4,682
New Jersey - Morris County
When you buy a ICE car that says you will get 25 City and 30 Highway, you at least get a range tells you at least if you drive with a lead foot on the highway you will get closer to 25 MPG than 30 MPG, not lose 25% of your tank like it has a leak in it from here to the Kool Aide store.

MPG estimates are exactly that - estimates. Our Enclave says 18 city, 26 highway.

I’ve never seen 26, not once, ever. Blended average is around 18, and 15 around town.

So, yeah, 15mpg around town is 83% of the lowest rated capacity (18-26)

If my Model 3 were 83% of rated, that’d be 257mi. It’s way better than that.

Zero concerns from me.
 

diamond.g

Active Member
Nov 5, 2015
2,421
1,361
Moyock, NC
I would only find the "Percentage" helpful if it would have said on the MSRP before buying the car, "you will reach 310 miles zero percent of the time, and not even close to 310 even if you are driving Miss Daisy."

Some of you Telsa Elitists on here throwing out all the math and defending Tesla while people are feeling burned or lets say even just as bit disappointed and want to share their experiences without being attacked, should really read your own posts once in a while. "Oh, just set it on % and set it and forget it," which is easy to do when you are going out to pick up a bottle of Jack Daniels and another dose of a Kool-aide chaser. But some of us have long commutes and paid extra for LR for a reason. We love the car, we don't exactly like the battery issues.

People want to know how many miles they REALLY have and then, HOW many are really left. When you buy a ICE car that says you will get 25 City and 30 Highway, you at least get an idea that you will at least be on the low side if you drive with a lead foot on the highway you will get closer to 25 MPG than 30 MPG, not lose 25% of your tank like it has a leak in it from here to the Kool Aide store.
The EPA highway test isn’t steady state speed. It also averages like 50 mph. So it isn’t really comparable to how people drive long distances on the interstate.
 
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Zorak03

Member
Nov 27, 2018
210
105
Alabama/China
I would only find the "Percentage" helpful if it would have said on the MSRP before buying the car, "you will reach 310 miles zero percent of the time, and not even close to 310 even if you are driving Miss Daisy."

Some of you Telsa Elitists on here throwing out all the math and defending Tesla while people are feeling burned or lets say even just as bit disappointed and want to share their experiences without being attacked, should really read your own posts once in a while. "Oh, just set it on % and set it and forget it," which is easy to do when you are going out to pick up a bottle of Jack Daniels and another dose of a Kool-aide chaser. But some of us have long commutes and paid extra for LR for a reason. We love the car, we don't exactly like the battery issues.

People want to know how many miles they REALLY have and then, HOW many are really left. When you buy a ICE car that says you will get 25 City and 30 Highway, you at least get an idea that you will at least be on the low side if you drive with a lead foot on the highway you will get closer to 25 MPG than 30 MPG, not lose 25% of your tank like it has a leak in it from here to the Kool Aide store.

Not only this but many of the SR+ people are getting screwed. I get the impression this Model has a significant battery degradation problem. There are a ton of threads from SR+ owners reporting only getting 210-225 miles after just a few thousand miles. Tesla just tells them everything is within specs and refuses to do anything. This type of stuff will cause Tesla’s reputation to suffer.
 
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Dr. J

Active Member
Aug 23, 2017
1,473
2,687
Fort Worth, Texas
The EPA highway test isn’t steady state speed.
Indeed--quite the opposite.
hwfetdds.gif

source: Detailed Test Information

Details of the EV test procedures: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/pdfs/EPA test procedure for EVs-PHEVs-11-14-2017.pdf.

Tesla didn't create the EPA test procedure, so blaming them for the results is off the mark--with the exception of them using the same range for all variants of the Model 3 at the start (which they have since modified).
 

Twiglett

Single pedal driver
Oct 3, 2014
2,742
2,669
Austin
Not only this but many of the SR+ people are getting screwed. I get the impression this Model has a significant battery degradation problem. There are a ton of threads from SR+ owners reporting only getting 210-225 miles after just a few thousand miles. Tesla just tells them everything is within specs and refuses to do anything. This type of stuff will cause Tesla’s reputation to suffer.
Dunno how many posts there need to be on this - there isn't degradation, its how the BMS estimates range based on the last bunch of charges. The biggest problem is people not wanting to believe Tesla when they are told how it works.
Re-read #11 for a better explanation.
 
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Zcd1

Member
Sep 2, 2018
712
807
Walloon Lake, MI / LaQuinta, CA
from my understanding the displayed range DOES NOT take into account your driving style or temp and bases it off the estimated battery capacity left. Also, the BMS can be off, and if it’s off the car will shut down when the displayed range gets to zero even if the battery actually has more capacity.

Am I wrong here? If I ask Tesla 5 times I get 5 different answers so I don’t know.

If I am right then setting it to % and forgetting about it would be a bad idea. If I’m wrong (which I hope), then it’s definitely the best idea.

As far as I'm aware, you're wrong in suggesting that the BMS (Battery Management System) is ever actually "off".

The range displayed on the home screen does NOT take into account driving style or anything else, and is based on the EPA-rated range alone. As has been pointed out, that's not very helpful or useful - maybe Tesla will change that someday. That's why many suggest changing that to %, because the % remaining is what YOUR car has at any given point, which is a result of your driving style and conditions since the last charge.

If you plug a destination into the NAV, then the "Energy" screen also gives an extremely accurate range estimate - that's what I use if I'm ever wondering whether I have enough range to get me to my destination.

The real issue is people trying to force their ICE vehicle paradigms onto an EV. That's a recipe for confusion and mental anguish, so why do that?
 

Zorak03

Member
Nov 27, 2018
210
105
Alabama/China
Dunno how many posts there need to be on this - there isn't degradation, its how the BMS estimates range based on the last bunch of charges. The biggest problem is people not wanting to believe Tesla when they are told how it works.
Re-read #11 for a better explanation.

the reason people don’t want to believe Tesla is because Tesla gives conflicting answers. I’ve asked Tesla twice and received two very different answers.
 
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Twiglett

Single pedal driver
Oct 3, 2014
2,742
2,669
Austin
the reason people don’t want to believe Tesla is because Tesla gives conflicting answers. I’ve asked Tesla twice and received two very different answers.
no sure how that proves that SR+ customers are "getting screwed" to quote your post - or that there is some conspiracy to cover up a "significant battery degradation"
Much more likely that those folks are taking regular short journeys and charging back up to 80 or 90%

Two ways to demonstrate
1-keep charging at every single opportunity after a series of short drives. For me it was when I was off work and the car moved no more than a few miles a day and was plugged back in. The other option is leaving it plugged in with sentry mode etc running for a few days.
In this circumstance my car "lost" or "degraded" almost 10 miles - once I started driving the estimated range all magically returned.
2-Try not plugging in for a few days and running the battery lower than you normally do, then plug it back in and charge up. Each time I've done this the estimated range returns again. It's just letting the BMS calculation get better data.

TLDR - There isn't a degradation problem because that would be permanent and not return based on journey/charging habits. It's just a range estimate based on data that has no way to be complete enough to be accurate. Nobody is being screwed
 
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ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,400
11,928
California
Some of you Telsa Elitists on here throwing out all the math and defending Tesla while people are feeling burned or lets say even just as bit disappointed and want to share their experiences without being attacked, should really read your own posts once in a while. "Oh, just set it on % and set it and forget it," which is easy to do when you are going out to pick up a bottle of Jack Daniels and another dose of a Kool-aide chaser. But some of us have long commutes and paid extra for LR for a reason.

You sound like you just want to whine and have someone offer you a tissue to dry your tears of misunderstanding about how EPA ratings work.

I’m sorry you feel burned, but your facts are shaky and conclusions even more so. Plenty of people, including me, get quite close to rated range. As for “long commutes” being the justification for your pearl clutching, I do 120 miles per day. 105,000 miles in the last 3 years.

Whether you knew about it when you bought the car or not - this is how EVs work (and basically every other car ever made when it comes to EPA ratings). Your choices are to continue bemoaning that or move on and just drive.

Choose wisely. Eliminate the source of your stress. Griping about it here isn’t gonna change reality.
 
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KetchupKilla

Member
Oct 2, 2019
149
178
Massachusetts
I would only find the "Percentage" helpful if it would have said on the MSRP before buying the car, "you will reach 310 miles zero percent of the time, and not even close to 310 even if you are driving Miss Daisy."

Some of you Telsa Elitists on here throwing out all the math and defending Tesla while people are feeling burned or lets say even just as bit disappointed and want to share their experiences without being attacked, should really read your own posts once in a while. "Oh, just set it on % and set it and forget it," which is easy to do when you are going out to pick up a bottle of Jack Daniels and another dose of a Kool-aide chaser. But some of us have long commutes and paid extra for LR for a reason. We love the car, we don't exactly like the battery issues.

People want to know how many miles they REALLY have and then, HOW many are really left. When you buy a ICE car that says you will get 25 City and 30 Highway, you at least get an idea that you will at least be on the low side if you drive with a lead foot on the highway you will get closer to 25 MPG than 30 MPG, not lose 25% of your tank like it has a leak in it from here to the Kool Aide store.

I would easily get the 300 miles if not more because I don't drive crazy. I've taken trips of 100 miles with a wh/m about 225. My Mazda is rated for about 29 combined. I still only get about 27. I get you have concerns but realize you can do something about it. Change your driving habits for one. I have never bought a car thinking 13 gallan tank 30 combined mileage so I should get 390 miles per tank. In reality I'm not going to get that if I were to drive from full to empty.
 

lanbo

Member
Mar 29, 2019
55
21
Barcelona
Your wife starts getting secretive on the phone, stays late at work, doesn't want to have sex with you, improves her personal appearance and burns the credit card? Put your car in % and enjoy it! :)
 

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