Tesla should only publish 5-60 times for the Model 3

[gregincal]

The whole benefit of the 5-60 is getting away from the standing start. An ICE has a unique advantage because even "without launch control/assistance" the engine is in a higher energy state than at 5mph. There is significant kinetic energy in the form of rotational inertia from all the rotating mass. This gives an ICE vehicle an advantage from 0 that it doesn't have when in gear and creeping along at 5mph.

Only if you rev the engine high before popping the clutch (i.e. launch it) instead of starting from idle like people do in real life. There's still some kinetic energy, but probably less than at 5 mph..

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The first point of the article, which may have not been obvious enough, is that the 5-60 rolling start test is more representative of how the average person normally drives. It thus better captures how responsive any given car feels during normal driving, or rather during any driving other than launching from a stoplight.

I am much more likely to accelerate from a stop than accelerate from 5 mph. The part about how people normally drive is to not rev the engine before starting (which generally makes everybody look at you like you're an idiot). In real life EV's definitely have an advantage from a stop with the low end torque.

 

[nativespinner]

Yup, every time I enter a highway I come to a full stop and then mash the pedal. It doesn't matter what the cars behind me think. "Why is this idiot stopping when there is no stop sign." 5-60 can be a useful metric.

 

[SageBrush]

Interesting thread -- I'm not sure how I missed it for so long.

I'm not sure I buy the 5-60 argument as something consumers will prefer, but I can certainly see the merit of excluding engine revving in the test protocol.

 

[yerEVan]

Holy old thread Batman. (I’m really a Marvel guy).

 

[polyphonic54]

I like 5-60 because I get to actually perform that run several times a day. 0-60 is quite rare in my actual driving. 0-30 is common.

There’s a great Reddit thread of 5-60 times of common cars. I like it because it subtracts launch mode and gives an idea of what to expect in normal driving.

Is the rumor true that AWD 3 0-60 measured with rollout, and the Perf without?

 

[Apprunner]

This argument applies to ICE but not EV. Anyone can extract the 0-60 with the Tesla at any light because all you do is mash. For ICE the 5-60mph is more indicative of what they will get at a stoplight mashing the throttle. But these days, the launch control is getting way better so 0-60 from mags isn’t all that hard to get. A 911 will be able to get published time pretty easily.

 

[Uncle Paul]

0-60 is not to measure power, but to apply the same yardstick to compare one vehicle to another.

Roll out is used because there is a huge historical database of other cars on the dragstrip that people can use as comparisons.

5-60 introduces a ton of variables. Some automatic cars will typically start out in 2ns gear, then take a moment to downship to first to optimize torque.

 

[LACALawyer]

no. I want a pure 0 - 60 time without ANY tricks.

 

[Zoomit]

0-60 is not to measure power, but to apply the same yardstick to compare one vehicle to another.

Roll out is used because there is a huge historical database of other cars on the dragstrip that people can use as comparisons.

5-60 introduces a ton of variables. Some automatic cars will typically start out in 2ns gear, then take a moment to downship to first to optimize torque.

These are all yardsticks used to compare vehicle performance and they are relevant for different purposes.

My main point was that the rolling start data is more representative of normal driving responsiveness. ICE vehicles, and even some BEVs, introduce features specifically to optimize 0-60 such as Launch Mode. But I’m never going to use launch mode in real life. I want to know if I can confidently pass another vehicle, for example. The rolling start data provides a more pure representation of the vehicle’s ability to accelerate in normal driving conditions. The fact that some automatic cars start out in 2nd gear and would need to downshift is precisely why this kind of test is useful.

In the years since I started this thread, there has been some adoption of the rolling start performance data. I’m specifically referring to the fact that Car & Driver now includes the rolling start in their performance summaries. I think this was motivated due to the widespread use of turbochargers over the last decade. Turbo lag is real and the rolling start test is a good way to quantify this lag in cars. Coincidentally, it’s also a way to highlight that BEVs have instant torque response.

 

[SageBrush]

These are all yardsticks used to compare vehicle performance and they are relevant for different purposes.

My main point was that the rolling start data is more representative of normal driving responsiveness. ICE vehicles, and even some BEVs, introduce features specifically to optimize 0-60 such as Launch Mode. But I’m never going to use launch mode in real life. I want to know if I can confidently pass another vehicle, for example. The rolling start data provides a more pure representation of the vehicle’s ability to accelerate in normal driving conditions. The fact that some automatic cars start out in 2nd gear and would need to downshift is precisely why this kind of test is useful.

In the years since I started this thread, there has been some adoption of the rolling start performance data. I’m specifically referring to the fact that Car & Driver now includes the rolling start in their performance summaries. I think this was motivated due to the widespread use of turbochargers over the last decade. Turbo lag is real and the rolling start test is a good way to quantify this lag in cars. Coincidentally, it’s also a way to highlight that BEVs have instant torque response.

It is also a way to take the driver out of the result

 

[SlimJim]

0-60 is relevant for me. I stomp on the pedal at the light if I am at the front. Every time I deem safe.
I have not seen a car that can beat my 3.5 sec acceleration.
If comparing with a European car, mine is 3.7 sec 0-60.

 

[BlindPass]

0-60 is relevant for me. I stomp on the pedal at the light if I am at the front. Every time I deem safe.
I have not seen a car that can beat my 3.5 sec acceleration.
If comparing with a European car, mine is 3.7 sec 0-60.

Yes, both metrics are better than one. Sort of like wanting horsepower AND torque.

One thing I appreciate about the M3 is how well that 3.2 0-60 number translates to what you can expect in real driving situations. 3.2 is very good, particularly for the price. It becomes elite when you consider even the most novice driver can get close to that every time.

If judging only on 0-60, it does lack a little in 30-60, and falls short of what you’d expect when accelerating from high speeds.

 

[SageBrush]

Sort of like wanting horsepower AND torque.

Not in the way I view performance.

My complaint with the 0 - 60 as currently tested is engine operation without moving. There is in effect no defined starting point because the engine is being operated while the stopwatch is napping.

 

[McFlurri]

No

 

[BlindPass]

Not in the way I view performance.

My complaint with the 0 - 60 as currently tested is engine operation without moving. There is in effect no defined starting point because the engine is being operated while the stopwatch is napping.

So you’re saying more than one metric is needed to measure performance?

Yes, just like HP, or torque, do not singularly tell the story about performance.

Instant torque is a big advantage of EV. I agree pre-conditioning like launch modes, torque breaking, traction etc influence metrics too, which is why the M3 is even better than the 3.2 imo

 

[SSonnentag]

We need a new test, the "Distance in 5 seconds Pedal Mash Report," or simply D5PMD. It reports how many feet/meters a vehicle travels from 0% throttle at Time-zero to 100% throttle 5 seconds later. This will account for all the engine reving, clutch and trasmission slippage and so forth. I bet we'd be surprised with some of the cars that float to the top of the list.

 

[Rutgere]

Bla bla bla, new KPI, much better wow. Next thing you know people will find a way to game you new KPI, that's how it works.

Can we do 5-60 with a reasonable approach? Oh cool coast down to 5, rev the engine and look here we go, much faster!

It is what happened with the mpg tests(oh I can remove all mirrors cool ) it will happen here as well once it has enough traction.

It's a nice thought experiment but bev and ice are not comparable? Too bad.

(~. f for the windbg fans )

 

[SSonnentag]

Bla bla bla, new KPI, much better wow. Next thing you know people will find a way to game you new KPI, that's how it works.

Can we do 5-60 with a reasonable approach? Oh cool coast down to 5, rev the engine and look here we go, much faster!

It is what happened with the mpg tests(oh I can remove all mirrors cool ) it will happen here as well once it has enough traction.

It's a nice thought experiment but bev and ice are not comparable? Too bad.

(~. f for the windbg fans )

What is KPI?

 

[Rutgere]

What is KPI?

Good question, Key Performance Indicator. My bonus depends on one

 

[TjckTock]

I like the idea of standardizing to idle/0 to 60. Seems like 5-60 is a band-aid for the problem that folks will soon work around (nothing stopping someone from figuring out how to creep along at 5mph while your engine is fully revved).

Yea, I'm obviously guilty of not having read the article before posting initially, I as much as said so already.

Maybe 2 new tests can be agreed upon, a "0-60 with launch control/assistance" and a "0-60 without launch control/assistance."

Just make it wicked simple. Cause, honestly... no one cares what the 5-60 is as none of us cruise at 5, then mash it until we hit 60, haha. Now that is clear and to the point!

This.
I like the idea of standardizing to idle/0 to 60 and a separate category for launch control. Seems like 5-60 is a band-aid for the problem that folks will soon work around (nothing stopping someone from figuring out how to creep along while your engine is fully revved and out of gear and drop it as soon as speed crosses 5mph). Probably already been done. Brad_NC is right - keep it simple.