Tesla Solar vs ....[third party competitors]

[sunwarriors]

I don't own a Tesla vehicle, but came here mostly looking for solar install advice and powerwalls. When I was researching, every installer had long waits for Powerwalls and no ETA so I decided to not wait for Powerwalls due to NEM3.0 coming in CA and not wanting to gamble on that. With horror stories of PTO taking 6+ months for some people here too during their install, I couldn't afford to risk it.

After also reading here, I called and eliminated Tesla solar since it sounds like they have no more allocation for CA SGIP (storage rebates) and general lack of response when things break and you need a Tesla person on-site. Concerns were also anything not 'standard' in an install maybe hard to do/change.

If your install is very straightforward, basic, your house isn't different (no metal roofs), then I think Tesla will nearly always have the lowest price and it probably works/gets done decently fast too. It's hard for anyone to compete with their pricing so that's a sure positive that you can always look at when the install/possible headache passes.

I didn't like going with Tesla directly neither with their whole Solar Roof price increase debacle since who knows what will happen if they can just revoke signed contracts.

Is it really that great to have it integrate solar with the car? Cars take so much energy that it seems (to me) limited in useability.

 

[Ramphex]

(moderator note)

I moved this into this thread because its the same basic question (is tesla energy worth it) and there is feedback in this thread on that topic. I am also aware that it broke the poll. As you surmised, this question is asked fairly frequently.

As far as the question you asked "is tesla solar worth it" I would say, for you, no I dont think so, because the sales model between the vehicle division and car division is similar. You already mentioned you didnt like that model (I am not making this about your feelings, just stating why I am saying what I said).

Since you dont like the model, and the model is the same, then the answer is "no, for you, its not worth it, because you likely want higher touch than tesla provides in this space".

After reading this thread I realized it talks about nothing but money and solar roof, which I’m not concerned with either. So you took it upon yourself to merge my thread into another thread that is filled with information that does not pertain to my questions therefore further diluting their topic and my topic. I guess I’ll go seek advice elsewhere. Also reported you for mismoderation.

PS: also don’t need a new roof, add it to my list of why this thread merge was completely irrelevant. This is a solar section and ultimately 99% of the threads will be about something solar related, going to merge them all into one?

 

[jjrandorin]

After reading this thread I realized it talks about nothing but money and solar roof, which I’m not concerned with either. So you took it upon yourself to merge my thread into another thread that is filled with information that does not pertain to my questions therefore further diluting their topic and my topic. I guess I’ll go seek advice elsewhere. Also reported you for mismoderation.

PS: also don’t need a new roof, add it to my list of why this thread merge was completely irrelevant. This is a solar section and ultimately 99% of the threads will be about something solar related, going to merge them all into one?

You are actually right in that the thread i moved it to was not the most relevant, so looked again and moved it into a more relevant thread, on tesla solar vs competitors, from september of this year. Perhaps this thread has some of the feedback you are looking for, which is peoples opinions on tesla energy.

 

[Ramphex]

It’s okay, I’ll just stay away from posting in this section and seek advise on another forum. Your moderation techniques appear rather unreasonable.

 

[jjrandorin]

Is it really that great to have it integrate solar with the car? Cars take so much energy that it seems (to me) limited in useability.

It depends on what you are looking for. Tesla does not currently offer vehicle to grid or vehicle to home functionality, so you cant use the car to run your home. The integration by having a tesla vehicle and tesla powerwalls comes from a setting to ensure that charging the car will not drain the battery if you are unexpectedly on backup power.

Because a typical tesla vehicle has from 55kW ish (model 3 SR/SR+ to 100kW battery, charging your car from your powerwalls is not something you really would do on a regular basis. Something you might want to do, however, is put "excess solar" generated into your car, instead of into the grid. Having a tesla vehicle and powerwalls allows you to take yourself off grid and do that.

Whether thats anything you want or think you need is another matter.

As for "is tesla energy worth it" I will admit freely that I moved @Ramphex thread to the wrong thread originally. As they mentioned, anyone in this subforum will know that question is asked fairly frequently, and I chose the wrong thread to move it to.

The one its in now, however, is directly on the topic of "tesla or third party". Every concern that @Ramphex has, is a valid one, and one people have brought up here various times. Much of it is true, in that there tend to be very little communication during projects, not a lot of ability to ask questions etc. Thats why I originally said "no, for you @Ramphex , tesla energy is not a good fit".

Tesla will not use micro inverters, and recently has seemed hesitant to even quote people with optimizers
Tesla is not going to let someone choose panels.
Tesla panel warranty is 25 years, but labor portion appears to be 10 years coverage.
Tesla is not going to do well with someone who wants to be involved in the process.

As said in this thread that this post is now in, tesla energy is not a good fit for someone who wants to be involved, or has specific needs they want addressed, for the most part. Whatever research is done on tesla energy is going to turn up the same basic answer, here or otherwise. Tesla prices solar like a commodity, so in general tends to be less expensive. If their sales approach works for a person, you can typically save some, or a lot of money.

If one is expecting a medium to high touch customer service experience, that doesnt tend to be the experience they offer, either on cars or solar.

 

[yblaser]

It’s okay, I’ll just stay away from posting in this section and seek advise on another forum. Your moderation techniques appear rather unreasonable.

If this is your response to a minor issue on a free forum I would stay far, far away from Tesla Energy.

 

[h2ofun]

I don't own a Tesla vehicle, but came here mostly looking for solar install advice and powerwalls. When I was researching, every installer had long waits for Powerwalls and no ETA so I decided to not wait for Powerwalls due to NEM3.0 coming in CA and not wanting to gamble on that. With horror stories of PTO taking 6+ months for some people here too during their install, I couldn't afford to risk it.

After also reading here, I called and eliminated Tesla solar since it sounds like they have no more allocation for CA SGIP (storage rebates) and general lack of response when things break and you need a Tesla person on-site. Concerns were also anything not 'standard' in an install maybe hard to do/change.

If your install is very straightforward, basic, your house isn't different (no metal roofs), then I think Tesla will nearly always have the lowest price and it probably works/gets done decently fast too. It's hard for anyone to compete with their pricing so that's a sure positive that you can always look at when the install/possible headache passes.

I didn't like going with Tesla directly neither with their whole Solar Roof price increase debacle since who knows what will happen if they can just revoke signed contracts.

Is it really that great to have it integrate solar with the car? Cars take so much energy that it seems (to me) limited in useability.

IMO, solar and an EV car are apple and oranges. I have 30kw of solar, no EV. And I did NOT do Tesla!! Cost me a few more bucks but NO headaches!!!!!

 

[holeydonut]

@Zinc_Saucier : I agree with jjrandorin... you seem like a more discerning customer who has specific wants/desires out of your big investment. You're likely not going to have a good experience working with Tesla on this. You should find a premium local shop that charges the extra bucks to make sure customers like you come away feeling really damn good. Instead of just coming away with some solar on your roof and a few batteries in your garage.

One thing to consider about Tesla Autos vs Tesla Energy is that the gap between Tesla's EVs and competitor EVs in the price class is pretty dramatic. In my opinion Tesla's EV drivetrain is much better than other options at this exact moment in time (I don't care what Sandy Munro says).

With Tesla's Powerwall and Inverters, it's not like Tesla has a mega advantage over the competition. The Powerwall is an AC-coupled setup and very flexible because of this setup. But, companies like Enphase also have AC coupled battery systems; some users here on TMC have had good results from Enphase without sacrificing on features or function.

There are also DC coupled setups like what H2ofun was talking about from SolarEdge and Generac's PWRCELL. These basically pound all their energy through the solar inverters and pair very well with solar systems (that don't use microinverters).

While pricing is most attractive with Tesla directly... it seems you're (edit) not just chasing the cheapest. So explore with local shops and get that white glove treatment you probably want.

Personally, I have a Sunrun system with Enphase microinverters paired with Tesla Powerwalls. While I like seeing a Model 3 and Powerwall in one app, it's not like having the two paired up really confers much benefit. At no point would I care if I had "Tesla solar panels". The major benefit I can think of (other than looking cool) of having lots of Tesla stuff is that the Model 3 will know if the power company goes offline. So the car may intelligently stop charging to avoid draining the Powerwalls. You could replicate this "load shedding" benefit through other means with other energy companies.

 

[Zinc_Saucier]

@Zinc_Saucier : I agree with jjrandorin... you seem like a more discerning customer who has specific wants/desires out of your big investment. You're likely not going to have a good experience working with Tesla on this. You should find a premium local shop that charges the extra bucks to make sure customers like you come away feeling really damn good. Instead of just coming away with some solar on your roof and a few batteries in your garage.

One thing to consider about Tesla Autos vs Tesla Energy is that the gap between Tesla's EVs and competitor EVs in the price class is pretty dramatic. In my opinion Tesla's EV drivetrain is much better than other options at this exact moment in time (I don't care what Sandy Munro says).

With Tesla's Powerwall and Inverters, it's not like Tesla has a mega advantage over the competition. The Powerwall is an AC-coupled setup and very flexible because of this setup. But, companies like Enphase also have AC coupled battery systems; some users here on TMC have had good results from Enphase without sacrificing on features or function.

There are also DC coupled setups like what H2ofun was talking about from SolarEdge and Generac's PWRCELL. These basically pound all their energy through the solar inverters and pair very well with solar systems (that don't use microinverters).

While pricing is most attractive with Tesla directly... it seems you're (edit) not just chasing the cheapest. So explore with local shops and get that white glove treatment you probably want.

Personally, I have a Sunrun system with Enphase microinverters paired with Tesla Powerwalls. While I like seeing a Model 3 and Powerwall in one app, it's not like having the two paired up really confers much benefit. At no point would I care if I had "Tesla solar panels". The major benefit I can think of (other than looking cool) of having lots of Tesla stuff is that the Model 3 will know if the power company goes offline. So the car may intelligently stop charging to avoid draining the Powerwalls. You could replicate this "load shedding" benefit through other means with other energy companies.

Hey @holeydonut , not sure if something got messed up with the thread merge/un-merge/merge, but I haven’t participated in this thread. I’ve posted elsewhere about going with a local installer over Tesla (though not as enthusiastically/frequently as some…) due to better customization/communication, and am happy with my decision. Think you’re looking for @Ramphex

 

[holeydonut]

Yeah I’m my latest reply was for ramphex. Sorry about that

 

[sunwarriors]

Wanted to add for me, not being able to choose anything made me avoid Tesla solar as well...namely, no micro-inverters, forced to use a string invertor now I think, no panel choice as mentioned.

Price wise, if you get Powerwalls from Tesla certified installers, I was never quoted powerwalls cheaper than Enphase Encharge batteries (though the PW have higher kWh), but I'd still rather have LFP personally so price wasn't a benefit.

Good points on Tesla Solar not really being ahead of the competition...They don't really make any of the solar components outside of the PWs I think.

 

[nwdiver]

...namely, no micro-inverters, forced to use a string invertor now I think,

Micros are over-hyped.

Optimizers... what are they good for?​

 

[sunwarriors]

Micros are over-hyped.

Optimizers... what are they good for?​

No doubt, but see enough complaints here of solar system being completely offline and taking 2+ months to replace the central Inverter doesn't sound great neither. It's not like the cost is that different IMO for residential (mostly smaller installs). So in your mind, strings are the best then (that's all Tesla offers now)?

 

[jsurpless]

in MA I have not heard stories of a single customer happy with Tesla solar. A friend of mine had the solar tiles put on his roof and they did horrible shoddy work. Getting good support is near impossible. I am a fan of Tesla but I wouldn't ever give them my roof with the way that division is run right now.

We installed an 8kW system with 2x PowerWalls on my mom's house last October... it was quite the experience to get PTO (it took 7 months) and still working on getting SMART approved/finalized. But the system has performed excellently and the installation team was fantastic.

 

[nwdiver]

So in your mind, strings are the best then (that's all Tesla offers now)?

There is an extra cost of ~$0.40/w whether that's hidden in the installers margins or not. Point is that I would completely discard it as a factor when deciding installers.

 

[holeydonut]

There is an extra cost of ~$0.40/w whether that's hidden in the installers margins or not. Point is that I would completely discard it as a factor when deciding installers.

I like the general reliability proposition that microinverters provide. Should a microinverter fail, the system remains mostly functional.

Also, the long-term reliability of Enphase seems very good once the product gets past the "infant mortality" timeframe in the first few months after install. I suspect this is because Enphase micros expel heat with induction and are mounted under the panels (no coolant/pump and they're not in direct sunlight).

The single, large inverters seem to be convenient for expert installers and expert DIY'ers who can get a new unit swapped in quickly. But this becomes a pain point for homeowners who rely on installers to squeeze in a RMA/replacement on a diagnostic trip and re-schedule for replacement. H2ofun seemed to get a new SolarEdge inverter super easy. But the solar forums and even TMC are littered with customers who are stuck waiting months to eventually get a replacement inverter.

 

[nwdiver]

Should a microinverter fail, the system remains mostly functional.

True. But how much downtime would it take to offset the ~$0.40/w increase in cost? That's ~$4k on a 10kW system. And a string inverter will usually be quicker to swap than a micro even if the rest of the system can still function without it. I can swap a SMA string inverter from the ground in ~10 minutes. To swap a micro you'd need to climb on the roof, find the panel, hope it was mapped correctly, lift the panel or possibly panels.... Buying local is probably the best way to ensure your system is maintained correctly.

 

[holeydonut]

True. But how much downtime would it take to offset the ~$0.40/w increase in cost? That's ~$4k on a 10kW system. And a string inverter will usually be quicker to swap than a micro even if the rest of the system can still function without it. I can swap a SMA string inverter from the ground in ~10 minutes. To swap a micro you'd need to climb on the roof, find the panel, hope it was mapped correctly, lift the panel or possibly panels.... Buying local is probably the best way to ensure your system is maintained correctly.

IMO, in my bids, I didn't see a $0.40 per watt increase with Enphase micros compared to strings. If there is a $0.40 cost differential for the same kWp (AC) output, the installers may be eating some of that margin or offsetting somewhere else. When all was said and done (which unfortunately took like 2 years of my life and many increases to my blood pressure), my Sunrun system was the same cost to what Tesla would have charged me. Sunrun didn't charge for the new MSP and helped with the SGIP rebate while Tesla would not have done those things).

Looking back at my quotes, I had a bid using Delta that were higher than the two Enphase bids. Zero bids would attempt to do "ESS self-powered mode" enabled by metering non-backup loads. I can't imagine how a normal homeowner gets a good system knowing the BS that happens during the sales process.

But if you're comparing against Sunpower Micros, I can see what you're talking about. The SunPower Equinox (built in micros for each panel) was the most outrageous bid I saw... probably 25% higher than the next highest bid. I can't tell if that's because SunPower is crazy-priced or if it's because of the micros. I don't know who SunPower caters to, but those customers either have gigantic HELOC loans are are printing money.

 

[nwdiver]

IMO, in my bids, I didn't see a $0.40 per watt increase with Enphase micros compared to strings. If there is a $0.40 cost differential for the same kWp (AC) output, the installers may be eating some of that margin or offsetting somewhere else. When all was said and done (which unfortunately took like 2 years of my life and many increases to my blood pressure), my Sunrun system was the same cost to what Tesla would have charged me. Sunrun didn't charge for the new MSP and helped with the SGIP rebate while Tesla would not have done those things).

Looking back at my quotes, I had a bid using Delta that were higher than the two Enphase bids. Zero bids would attempt to do "ESS self-powered mode" enabled by metering non-backup loads. I can't imagine how a normal homeowner gets a good system knowing the BS that happens during the sales process.

But if you're comparing against Sunpower Micros, I can see what you're talking about. The SunPower Equinox (built in micros for each panel) was the most outrageous bid I saw... probably 25% higher than the next highest bid. I can't tell if that's because SunPower is crazy-priced or if it's because of the micros. I don't know who SunPower caters to, but those customers either have gigantic HELOC loans are are printing money.

How long ago? It's a lot easier to absorb $0.40/w when the system retails for $3/w than $2/w.

 

[holeydonut]

How long ago? It's a lot easier to absorb $0.40/w when the system retails for $3/w than $2/w.

All the quotes I got were just before COVID-19 to the early first wave of COVID-19. Like back when some knew it as SARS-CoV-2.