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Tesla still advertise Model S can go 312 miles in Japan

hiroshiy

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Apr 6, 2013
2,407
2,004
Tokyo, Japan
I asked a few Tesla employees to stop saying 312 miles since it is more than U.S. Ideal range and nobody knows about EU NEDC cycle here in Japan.
Still, some people think Model S can go 500km/312 miles and are shocked to experience fast decline of Ideal range while test drives. Yes the staff sets it to Ideal range for test drives. An uninformed guy believed in 312 miles (ordinary people can't read English forums) and purchased the car, disappointed, sold the car at a loss, wrote a crazy negative review about the car and the staff, now the review became very popular that everyone can find in top 10 of Google Search result for Tesla.

So this is I believe Tesla's fault.

How can I stop Tesla from false advertising? They even prominently display 312 miles at Tokyo and Osaka storefronts. Very bad for Japanese culture, which hates liars.

They also show Superchargers on the web site, but since they are seriously behind schedule, they should reduce the amount of Supercharger content in Japan. Currently, I would say it's also false advertising. We have three in Tokyo a few miles apart, one in Yokohama out of the way for the most people, one in Osaka which Model S can't reach from Tokyo, and Kobe. We once had Kyoto, which is 300 miles from Tokyo, but they removed and no follow up after that. At least I can't say to my friends that Tesla is building Supercharger network, with confidence. I would have to say Tesla may or may not invest in Superchargers so don't count on them- if you're comfortable with CHAdeMO then buy it.

I think Tesla is doing fine in other countries, which is good, but they are about to lose one market forever.
They need to be honest. Please advise how I can help Tesla be honest in advertising and web site.
 

scottf200

Active Member
Feb 3, 2013
4,170
3,935
Chicagoland ModelX S603
I asked a few Tesla employees to stop saying 312 miles since it is more than U.S. Ideal range and nobody knows about EU NEDC cycle here in Japan.
Still, some people think Model S can go 500km/312 miles and are shocked to experience fast decline of Ideal range while test drives. Yes the staff sets it to Ideal range for test drives. An uninformed guy believed in 312 miles (ordinary people can't read English forums) and purchased the car, disappointed, sold the car at a loss, wrote a crazy negative review about the car and the staff, now the review became very popular that everyone can find in top 10 of Google Search result for Tesla.

So this is I believe Tesla's fault.

How can I stop Tesla from false advertising? They even prominently display 312 miles at Tokyo and Osaka storefronts. Very bad for Japanese culture, which hates liars.

They also show Superchargers on the web site, but since they are seriously behind schedule, they should reduce the amount of Supercharger content in Japan. Currently, I would say it's also false advertising. We have three in Tokyo a few miles apart, one in Yokohama out of the way for the most people, one in Osaka which Model S can't reach from Tokyo, and Kobe. We once had Kyoto, which is 300 miles from Tokyo, but they removed and no follow up after that. At least I can't say to my friends that Tesla is building Supercharger network, with confidence. I would have to say Tesla may or may not invest in Superchargers so don't count on them- if you're comfortable with CHAdeMO then buy it.

I think Tesla is doing fine in other countries, which is good, but they are about to lose one market forever.
They need to be honest. Please advise how I can help Tesla be honest in advertising and web site.
I'm also curious how the range advertising is displayed for the LEAF and Outlander.

I agree regardless of the country that the Tesla employees should be 100% up front and accurate on the range. In the USA, there are interactive displays in the stores that let you see and play with the actual range. Do that have that in Japan?

Isn't this equivalent page available to the Japanese?
Model S | Tesla Motors
Image: http://i.imgur.com/f719li8.png
f719li8.png


I'm note sure why Tesla would focus on Superchargers in Japan with this sort of chademo coverage?
JPmap CHAdeMO Association
Image: http://i.imgur.com/OWziy66.png
OWziy66.png
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,414
3,400
Phoenix, AZ
Tesla's quoted ranges are tied to the regulatory agencies in each market that are responsible for establishing testing protocols under which those figures were determined. If you have a problem with the figure, you should take it up with your legislators and the governing body responsible for those ratings.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,829
5,758
Doesn't Japan use a national standard that is extremely optimistic? As posted by others, the Leaf gets 142 miles on that cycle, but in reality it gets more like half that in the real world (70-80 miles).
 

liuping

Active Member
Jul 23, 2013
2,243
897
San Diego
Doesn't Japan use a national standard that is extremely optimistic? As posted by others, the Leaf gets 142 miles on that cycle, but in reality it gets more like half that in the real world (70-80 miles).
If a Nissan can say the Leaf goes 142 miles, Tesla should be able to say the Tesla goes over 400 miles on a charge.

I would assume Japanese customers are used to wildly optimist MPG numbers by now.
 

scottf200

Active Member
Feb 3, 2013
4,170
3,935
Chicagoland ModelX S603
How much is the Leaf advertized with? The JC08 test results (228 km/142 miles)? If so, I wouldn't blame Tesla, I'd blame the legislators.

To your point.

Nissan Officially Announces 2013 LEAF In Japan. More Range, Less Money, New Functionality | Inside EVs

Range has increased to 228 km from 200 km on the Japanese JC08 mode, which as most of us know by now is an impossible-to-duplicate in the real word scenario.
<snip>
We spoke to Nissan North America early this morning, and understandably they are not keen to announce anything ahead of their own 2013 LEAF launch. They also really don’t want parallels between the Japanese JC08 test cycle to get confused with any future US ratings…which makes sense considering 228 km = 141 miles:
 

StaceyS

Member
Jul 10, 2015
210
50
Bend, OR United States
I think another very important factor to driving range in Japan is the very VERY low speed limits on Japanese roads. Expressways, the fastest allowable speeds are 100 km/h, which is 62 mph. Most highways are limited to 70 km/h, which is only 43 mph.

Per Tesla's range chart, if you drive at 43 mph in decent weather on level roads, you're going to get close to 400 miles of range. I would not be at all surprised to be able to get 312 miles of range out of a charge driving in Japan. In my own personal experience, I have found the roads in Japan to be very good, very smooth, and in much better condition than typically found in the US.
 

David_Cary

Active Member
Dec 17, 2012
1,240
779
Cary, NC
Right - and at 45 mph, a chademo probably gives a reasonable driving ratio. Drive 3 hours, charge 30 min.

Another way of looking at this - with the EPA an S85 gets three times the range of a Leaf - 84 to 265. So if a Leaf gets 141 miles on the Japanese cycle, the S85 should be 423. Now - the Leaf is not very aerodynamic and much lighter so it does relatively better in the city or in Japan then the Model S.

If Japan didn't have its own testing and they used EU testing instead of the US, the OP would have an argument. But Japan has its own testing so there it is.
 

hiroshiy

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Apr 6, 2013
2,407
2,004
Tokyo, Japan
Nissan also shows Leaf's range as 228km or 142 miles, under Japanese JC08 standard. There are two issues I believe.

1. Tesla is not based on JC08. They use NEDC cycle, which is also optimistic as JC08, but it's not accurate. Nobody knows about NEDC.
2. This is bigger issue. If you go into Nissan dealer, they don't prominently say 228km. The salespeople will tell you yeah it's going like 120km or 75 miles and you need to charge. On the other hand, if you go to Tesla website or showroom, you'll be told that 85 can go 500km or 312 miles. Is that OK? I don't think so.

JC08 is more like regarded as fuel consumption rate standard here - it is also a EV range standard, but most people can't connect that in fuel consumption world JC08 is optimistic AND the JC08 range is ALSO optimistic. People rather believe Leaf goes 228km and Model S goes 500km.

BTW average highway speed limit is 100km/h or 62mph. My in-town power consumption of P85 is approx 275Wh/km or 440Wh/mile in summer. My annual consumption average is 214Wh/km or 342Wh/mile in Tokyo. In general Tokyo traffic is much slower than other metro cities with MUCH more traffic signals. Less cars though :)
 

David_Cary

Active Member
Dec 17, 2012
1,240
779
Cary, NC
Interesting. Nissan dealers here had a habit of saying 100 miles despite the EPA being as low as 75 (varys year to year)

Your in-town consumption is pretty bad - the worst I've seen. And your annual is pretty bad also.

So Tesla never tested using JC08? But what they did is use the very similar NEDC. Still sounds pretty reasonable. Understanding different markets is a challenge. Japan is considered to be the most hostile large market to foreign manufacturers. Really not a market Tesla should have entered IMO.
 

hiroshiy

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Apr 6, 2013
2,407
2,004
Tokyo, Japan
Interesting. Nissan dealers here had a habit of saying 100 miles despite the EPA being as low as 75 (varys year to year)

Your in-town consumption is pretty bad - the worst I've seen. And your annual is pretty bad also.

So Tesla never tested using JC08? But what they did is use the very similar NEDC. Still sounds pretty reasonable. Understanding different markets is a challenge. Japan is considered to be the most hostile large market to foreign manufacturers. Really not a market Tesla should have entered IMO.

Hi, David, I don't think Japan is a hostile market - most of my friends drive foreign cars and I just see so many BMWs and Mercs on the road. However I agree that Japanese market is tricky - people still rely on mass media to obtain information, and people are very much more conservative. Tesla's way of not spending money over anything PR or advertisement doesn't fit this market. There are also a LOT of anti EV trolls hired by Toyota (I believe).

Back to topic, not using JC08 is not a good idea. Japanese thinks either:
- Hey, what's that NEDC thing? Didn't spend money to measure JC08 number or they don't respect Japanese standards?
- It says 500km so it should go 500km. Great!

Both reactions are not generating good understanding of Tesla, leading to disappointment.

I think Tesla is honest company, based in various things about Model S and so, in PR, Tesla would need to use numbers that are based on numbers that matter to customers, to set expectations right. Using bigger numbers just because it looks better is not honest. Tesla could use US EPA number as well.

Finally BTW my consumption numbers are usually better than other owners :)
 

Yggdrasill

Active Member
Feb 29, 2012
4,107
7,107
Kongsberg, Norway
Using the EPA number isn't a relevant possibility if the other car makers are using the JC08 figures. Then you have the 70 doing 230 miles and the Leaf doing 142 miles, and people will go "Okay, so the Model S has about 50% more range than the Leaf - that's pretty bad!"

I think the only two realistic options is either:

1. Not use any specific number, but instead just say "realistic range around 400 km/250 miles, YMMV" (for 85/90).
2. State the JC08 number, probably something like 650 km/400 miles. Then explain in detail what kind of range you can get when people ask.

The most correct way to do it would probably be number 2. But I can guarantee you that people would buy the Model S and then complain when they ran out of juice after 200 miles.
 

Alipapa

Member
Jan 22, 2013
224
0
Hong Kong
They used to advertise 500km of range (NEDC cycle) in Hong Kong. Taken off 4-5 months after model S was launch due to someone actually made a big argument with Tesla HK.

After 29xxx km, the energy consumption is 261wh . and I have never reach 300km per charge, not even 250km 90% of the time...
 

Yggdrasill

Active Member
Feb 29, 2012
4,107
7,107
Kongsberg, Norway
They used to advertise 500km of range (NEDC cycle) in Hong Kong. Taken off 4-5 months after model S was launch due to someone actually made a big argument with Tesla HK.

After 29xxx km, the energy consumption is 261wh . and I have never reach 300km per charge, not even 250km 90% of the time...
Wow, that's insane. Is the A/C running extremely much?
 

hiroshiy

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Apr 6, 2013
2,407
2,004
Tokyo, Japan
Using the EPA number isn't a relevant possibility if the other car makers are using the JC08 figures. Then you have the 70 doing 230 miles and the Leaf doing 142 miles, and people will go "Okay, so the Model S has about 50% more range than the Leaf - that's pretty bad!"

I think the only two realistic options is either:

1. Not use any specific number, but instead just say "realistic range around 400 km/250 miles, YMMV" (for 85/90).
2. State the JC08 number, probably something like 650 km/400 miles. Then explain in detail what kind of range you can get when people ask.

The most correct way to do it would probably be number 2. But I can guarantee you that people would buy the Model S and then complain when they ran out of juice after 200 miles.

I agree with both options. Maybe Tesla prefers 2, but I would recommend being honest in showroom decoration, catalogs and in-showroom communication too. Currently 500km is prominently displayed in front of the showroom with no mention of European cycle. Salespeople should tell visitors about realistic range, rather than NEDC.
 

scottf200

Active Member
Feb 3, 2013
4,170
3,935
Chicagoland ModelX S603

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