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Tesla Sues Ontario Government
- Thread starter Doug_G
- Start date
I'd be interested in seeing that study. Some incentives don't work well such as employee incentives but when you are using funds from cap and trade towards incentivizing people to change their behavior, I believe it has an effect in the short term due to lowering of GHG and the build out of the EV industry generally. The more EV's that are on the road initially, the more people will see and consider them.
For example, in China:
As a result of the government support and new incentives issued in 2014, production of new energy vehicles between January and August reached 31,137 units, up 328% from the same period of 2013. Domestic production during the first eight months of 2014 includes 6,621 plug-in hybrid sedans and 16,276 all-electric cars.[11]
Some 25 countries have incentives for EV's. Canada does not. EV incentives bridge the gap with ICE vehicles till battery prices come down and the increased volume of purchases allows manufacturers to take making EV's more seriously, design and engineer efficiencies and generally ramp up to production levels that eventually allows EV's to become affordable, competitive and desirable on their own.
Doug Ford says Telsa should consider coming to Ontario just like the big 5 have. Tesla would never have gotten off the ground had it tried to start up in Ontario. Anyone with half a brain would be promoting Tesla in Ontario, not shutting them out.
Tony_YYZ
Tezler Guru
The absolute proof of the EHVIP program's effectiveness will make itself clear in the months following the cancellation of the program. We'll see how drastically EV sales have fallen.
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5_+JqckQttqck
Active Member
I think the spike and drop will be evident enough between May/June to July/August. Also add in data from other brands of EVs and hybrids.
In CHina, city likes Shanghai, costs more than 20K to get auctioned car license plate, but EV and Plug-In cars are free to register.
You need a longer period as May and June were a catch-up time for everyone with pre-orders for couple of years.
5_+JqckQttqck
Active Member
Perhaps, but the threat of losing the more than generous rebate definitely spiked the number of confirmed orders minus the Ontarians that were holding out for AWD + Rebate.
Tony_YYZ
Tezler Guru
I'm definitely in that camp. Was originally planning on AWD but didn't want to risk losing the rebate.
I agree with this. With Tesla sales it will be hard to determine the effect of the end of the rebates since the Model 3 was available for such a short period of time before the rebates ended and there was so much pent up demand for the Model 3 that even if rebates remained or went up a bit you wouldn't be able to tell from the data. Maybe someone could do more analysis on Model S sales and the various rebates that applied on Model S purchases in the past since the car has now been around for about 5 years.
5_+JqckQttqck
Active Member
The newest poll showed that 4/10 forum users elected to cancel. That's a significant lost of sales due to the rebate being removed.
I’ve always been a bit puzzled by most of the rebate programs. To me, the goal should be to eliminate burning fossil fuels. To encourage manufacturers to develop vehicles that people could really see themselves trading in their ICE vehicle for, they need to help offset the large increase in price that larger and more efficient batteries cause. To this end, it would make the most sense to me to have the rebates tied into the range of the vehicle.
Firstly there would have to be a standardized way of measuring real-world range so the manufacturers cannot lie/cheat about their range. Then a rebate program tied into these real-world range results set up. Something along the lines of $10 x real range (in km) for PHEVs and $20 x real world range for BEVs. My Model 3 would get $20/km x 500km = $10,000 rebate, and a Honda Clarity would get $10/km x 130km = $1,300 rebate. I concede it would be difficult to measure the battery range of many PHEVs as many cannot be driven exclusively on battery (unlike my Volt), but something along the lines of the above makes the most sense to me if the goal is to wean us off burning fossil fuels for transportation.
Struja
“Frost”
I am fine with any measure they use as long as it is consistent.
If the government announced a program and the stated intetion was to "allow lower income families to purchase EV cars", at least we would know what the goal of the program was (even if it might not make sense).
I just have a big problem (that I have even read on this forum) from people who say "rich people shouldn't get the rebate" which is totally illogical IF the incentive is to promote cars with zero emissions.
pcons
M3 AWD+
Honestly, I think they will be hurt much more because the % of the price is much higher. A leaf fully loaded costs something like $43k, out the door without rebate that is $49k, with the rebate thats $35K, or almost 30% of the cost of the car. A model 3 (RWD since that's the only one that qualified) assuming you add EAP, but no other options like wheels, etc, is more like 70K plus tax thats $79k or 65k with rebate....which is about 18% of the cost of the car.....
ie, I think its much easier to make the leap from spending 65k -> 79k, than it is from 35k -> 49k, and thus I think more people who would have bought a Leaf for ~ 35k will not opt to spend 49k on one, and instead go with something like a loaded Civic or Chevy Cruze.
Similar comparison can be drawn with a volt or a bolt IMO.....
Edit: After typing this I thought of another thing that would be really interesting to track: price of used EVs now the rebate is gone (and before any program potentially replaces it). That is something that would certainly go up in my opinion....if I was looking to get an EV after the rebate (and didn't have my heart set on a model 3) I would be looking at a used leaf, bolt, or volt since they have some depreciation factored in due to having received the rebate....and if supply and demand hold out on that thought, it would imply the price of those used EVs should go up as demand for brand new ones declines....
Buying behavior can be a rather fickle thing but you would certainly think the cheaper EV's would become a difficult proposition for most, given as you say the greater % of their price represented by the incentive. If those (sales results) are the metrics the feds are waiting on, we're not likely to see anything introduced anytime soon.
Perhaps we need to flood the feds with comments here: [email protected]
It might be our best opportunity to convince the feds that incentives are needed if they are serious about meeting projected GHG emission standards. Be sure to read through the article first as it will guide you in your response.
Perhaps we need to flood the feds with comments here: [email protected]
It might be our best opportunity to convince the feds that incentives are needed if they are serious about meeting projected GHG emission standards. Be sure to read through the article first as it will guide you in your response.
Eco Capitalist
Member
That is totally illogical, regardless of the purpose of the incentive. Rich, poor, or somewhere in between, if you live and work in Ontario, you pay sales tax, gasoline tax (until you got an EV) and income tax. I've been an Ontario tax payer for the last 31 years. I've contributed significantly more than $14,000.00 to the provincial coffers. I view the rebate as the province refunding some of my tax dollars. Hell, just look at the taxes on your Tesla invoice (tire tax, AC tax, GST)!
5_+JqckQttqck
Active Member
Letting environmental richy riches have a great car tax free? Can't have that in a buck a beer province
Struja
“Frost”
No, logic dictates that the conclusion is the natural outcome of the directive. Again, I am not saying I agree with it but if the government said their directive (purpose or motivation) was to only incentives lower income families to purchase EV's then to take away the rebate would be logical. Dumb, but logical. I think where you disagree with me is that you are conflating "logic" with "fairness" or logic with equality. Logical reasoning does not assume fairness, simply that the conclusion flows from the purpose. I could think of millions of logical arguments which aren't fair (and are probably downright stupid, but they are logical).
However, under the current scheme put in place the directive was to try to maximize the lowering of carbon emissions, promote cleaner forms of transportation and improve the environment through EV ownership. If you take away the rebate from any group (doesn't matter which group - rich, poor, fat, skinnny, gay, straight, tall, short, black, white), the result (conclusion) does not satisfy the directive. So, by removing any part of the incentive to any group, the government is in effect, sabotaging it's own plan. You cannot maximize the environmental impact by excluding ANYONE. In fact, if the government truly wants to maximize environmental impact through EV ownership then the argument would be that they should do more to incentivize more people to buy EV's.
The reality is I am not sure the former government (and certainly not the current) was/is really keen on greener forms of transportation.
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Struja
“Frost”
Letting environmental richy riches have a great car tax free? Can't have that in a buck a beer province
I think you're right and it speaks to whether or not there is any sincere intent (by this government or last) to really want to reduce carbon emissions from transportation. I think (as is typical in politics), they will only really "care" about this issue, when the poll numbers tell them they should really care about this issue.
I just had this debate with my brother-in-law this weekend who drives a gas guzzling Range Rover, complaining that he shouldn't have to pay for the cars of "hippies" like me. I would bet (and judging from the comments section from that article), I would bet he is in the (misinformed) majority in the Province.
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