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Tesla Supercharger network

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by dsm363, May 25, 2012.

  1. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    #861 Larry Chanin, Nov 14, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
    Yes this is correct. We spoke with George on this point during the Miami Beach store opening celebration.

    I agree with Cottonwood that around 150 miles between Superchargers should be the maximum what Tesla plans towards. Having been relieved by George's assurances about the "dots on the map" it is further reassuring if you let Google maps calculate the distances between the California Superchargers:

    Folsom to Gilroy ..................................................169 miles

    Gilroy to Harris ...................................................112 miles

    Harris to Tejon .....................................................116 miles

    Tejon to LA .......................................................... 91 miles

    LA to Barstow .......................................................121miles


    So if Tesla follows a similar actual practice in the Northeast and elsewhere we shouldn't be concerned about the rest of the Supercharger rollout.

    Larry


    - - - Updated - - -

    Hi Robert,

    Good points. It does make sense for the Northeast to be the second rollout behind California.

    However, the reservation density resides down in Florida, so it would make sense to build from MIA to DC to connect to the Northeast portion of the network.

    Larry
     
  2. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I hope they tackle Texas too soon. They entire state could be started with only 3 Superchargers to cover the 'Texas triangle'.
     
  3. sublimaze1

    sublimaze1 8Dec2012 / Leeroy Jenkins

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    George ... GEORGE!! - are you reading this? :)
     
  4. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    Does "supercharging a car" qualify for "servicing a car"? In that case, erecting and operating Superchargers within Texas MUST be passed to a local license holder -- perhaps Exxon? :tongue:
     
  5. Babylonfive

    Babylonfive Power12

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    LOL Here's where comma placement matters : I hope they tackle Texas too, soon.
     
  6. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    #866 Robert.Boston, Nov 15, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
    So, here's my speculation (posted in another thread):

    Milford: the Westfield Connecticut Post Mall. Sits on I-95, ample parking, stores, dining.

    Wilmington: the Christiana Mall. Sits at a critical point on I-95, just south of the NJ Turnpike split and just north of the DE-1 connection, leading down to the Delaware coast. High end mall, Apple store, same owner as the Natick Mall (home of the Tesla Boston store).

    What's needed is one more in between. I'd be looking at the Woodbridge Center Mall, almost exactly equidistant between the other two malls and also owned by the Natick/Christiana people. Sits at the junction of the Garden State Pkwy and I-95.

    While Tesla is negotiating with the Woodbridge/Christiana people, they should add in a deal for The Maine Mall, which sits at the branch of I-95 and I-295. You take the I-95 branch to go north for skiing or into the lakes region, while you take I-295 and then US-1 to go to mid-coast Maine resorts.
     
  7. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Good one.
     
  8. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    From a practical standpoint I think a Model S with a 85 kWh battery would be hard pressed to make that distance at realistic interstate highway speeds with climate control on.

    First consider that it would be unwise in terms of battery life to Supercharge in Range mode. So if you charge in Standard mode you have to take off 10% of range. Then climate control can take as much as an additional 10-15%. The way I figure it using Tesla's published Range vs. Speed chart that a 85 kWh car might barely be able to make it 193 miles with climate control traveling at the speed limit of 70mph. (If climate control takes 15% it won't make it.)

    Personally I don't know anyone who travels at the posted speed limit in a performance sedan.:wink:
    Elon and Talulah certainly weren't going 70 mph when they took that little trip he tweeted about.

    They are definitely going to need an other Supercharge between those two locations and based on the spacing in California I expect that that's exactly what they're going to do.

    Larry
     
  9. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    First of all, one step at a time. I don't think that it will be long to get a Northern NJ Supercharger stop for all the reasons you state. All of your derating is reasonable and good to consider. These first two Superchargers get things started and the fill in will come (hopefully soon).

    The only thing unwise about charging in Range mode at a Supercharger is that the charging just slows down to a normal charge rate at the end to protect the battery. Its not unwise in terms of battery life, but it is very unwise in terms of time to charge when on a trip.

    For now, if I was driving that stretch, I would use my standard rule. Set the navigation to the destination or next charge point. Keep a margin of at least 20% with a minimum of 10 miles in rated miles over miles to the destination. If you start going below the 20%, slow down or get a charge sooner. If you go over the 20%, feel free to speed up. With the Northern NJ Supercharger in place, the Boston to Washington road trip in the Model S is a no brainer at whatever speed, you wish to drive.
     
  10. napabill

    napabill Active Member

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    "would be unwise in terms of battery life to Supercharge in Range mode"

    It was my understanding from previous threads that charging to full range with a Supercharger, or any charger, is not hard on the battery as long as it is used immediately following the charging. Said differently, never do a Range charge, then let the car sit.
     
  11. EdA

    EdA Model S P-2540

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    A few supercharging comments...

    1.) Regarding Boston to NY (or points further south): I never drive on Rt. 95 when going to NYC - kill me before I take the Cross Bronx Expressway again. I will take whatever route is going to be the least busy be it 84-684-Hutchinson River Pkt or the Merritt...but NEVER EVER 95. Texans, sorry to be so parochial. :)

    2.) Let's say there's a charging station outside of "Springfield" and I happen to live a few miles from "Springfield". What's to stop me from ever charging at home and always using (clogging up) the SuperCharger? Is Tesla going to enforce some kind of limits to keep locals off of the SuperChargers? I know when I'm on my road trip, a half and hour of SuperCharging is going to be more than I want to stop.

    I can see myself doing Boston<->Philly a bunch of the next N-years while my daughter is in college...
     
  12. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    Good points, @EdA . I almost always use I-84/I-684 so an SC near Danbury cT would be really good. The Milford SC could be helpful visiting my daughter in New Haven. Also a good choice for New Yorkers traveling to Cape Cod.

    However, given that there will be an SC in Milford, I expect that I'll detour there to top up even en route to NYC.
     
  13. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    I have a friend in Newton, MA with several properties on Fire Island. The Newton, MA to Bay Shore, NY drive that he does MANY times a year was a stretch even with the 85 kWh battery. Now, with the Milford Supercharger, its a no-brainer. He is now seriously considering a Model S.

    Superchargers may be what ultimately make Tesla a success. :biggrin:
     
  14. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    You make an excellent practical point. However, I received the following response from Tesla engineering following an inquiry that I made:

    "Charging in Max Range mode regularly will indeed accelerate battery degradation. Degradation mostly occurs at the upper end of the battery when it’s at very high voltage. Range mode is there for a reason – to give you max range – and customers should feel free to use it when it makes sense. We recommend using Standard mode for most daily driving."

    I agree that the Supercharger has a level of sophistication in communicating with Supercharger enabled batteries that is probably greater than conventional universal chargers. Nevertheless, beyond the practical advice that Supercharger fast charging probably ceases to be fast when fully charging in Range mode, I believe there probably is an added increment in battery degradation by Supercharging in Range mode. Put another way, if charging in Range mode degrades the battery at much lower capacities, it is not unreasonable to expect that charging at very high capacity, at higher heat loads, would probably be incrementally more damaging.

    Larry
     
  15. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    Larry,

    I think the "damage" to the battery when charging beyond 90% SoC is mainly determined by charging power and cell temperature. The superchargers begin to cut back from 90kW as early as 50% SoC. When range charging above 90% SoC with a super charger, I expect the charge power to fall below 20kW, the equivalent of AC charging with twin chargers. So that should not differ from level 2 (AC) charging.

    Heat load should be reduced when supercharging above 90% SoC, since Model S can redirect cooling power from the 10kW onboard chargers to the battery. Outside temperatures might play in here.
     
  16. Oyvind.H

    Oyvind.H Member

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    We discussed that in a norwegian EV forum recently. The conclusion was that power is so cheap noone here would detour and wait around at the Supercharger just to save a few bucks.
    And even though Tesla claims supercharging will not affect the battery, I would not risk any degradation from extensive supercharger use. Saving a few dollars at the risk of accelerated degradation and wasting time hanging around a charger is a no-brainer to me.

    You don`t buy a $70-90,000 car and cheap out on charging.....
     
  17. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I disagree. The supercharger will have to reduce current at higher SOC's to the same range as any other charger, and the pack TMS will be keeping pack temperatures in line well before the higher SOC is reached. By the time your are into the final 10% or so of a range mode charge on a supercharger I don't think the battery will be experiencing anything different than a range mode charge from an onboard charger.
     
  18. wayno

    wayno Member

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    I couldn't agree more on the Christiana Mall location. I went over there last week to scout out locations, and came up empty handed though. Even again tonight having Dinner at the mall, I couldn't find any signs of a supercharger construction area. I also checked out the I-95 rest area in DE as the next logical location and came up empty there as well. I would imagine that in order for it to be operational within a month there would need to be some sign of construction at this point. I will keep looking though until I hear an announcement.

    Thanks,
    Wayne
     
  19. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    I think you're right JRP3. Unless there's something we don't know, you can't apply much more than 4.2v to a Li-ion cell while charging it. That doesn't leave enough voltage differential to apply more charging power regardless of method. That's why it starts cutting the rate down fairly early when Supercharging.
     
  20. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Yes you have to keep voltage below the electrolyte solvent breakdown voltage so current has to be reduced. EPhase: Battery Electrolyte Breakdown Voltage
    It's like filling a bucket with a hose, when the bucket is empty you can use high pressure and not spill anything, but as it nears full you need to lower the pressure if you want to fill it all the way.
     

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