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Assuming the regen is at least linear with speed, that is there's not an increase in generator efficiency at high speed, then I'd think that the the more regen and hence the slower you went the better.

There's a fixed amount of potential energy available from the loss of altitude, Mass x Height x Gravity's Acceleration, so the question is just where does the energy go. If you don't use the brakes, the energy loss is mostly air resistance, rolling resistance, and regen. Rolling resistance doesn't vary much with speed, but air resistance goes up with the square of the speed, so my guess is that the best strategy from the standpoint of maximizing charge is use as much regen as possible and go as slow as you can stand.

That would mean pretty slow speeds though, so to be practical, I'd suggest something like stay below 50 or so using just regen to control speed. Below 50, the air resistance is still reasonable, but because of the square law, the loss to air resistance starts getting pretty bad as you go much faster. At 70 almost twice as much energy will be lost to air resistance as at 50 (490 vs 250). Because of regen losses though, if you want to be going faster at the bottom, as abasile said, speeding up by backing off regen seems like a better strategy than using the motor.

Good stuff, RDoc. I've never yet found a highway grade steep enough that full regen was needed to hold a constant speed on the downhills; at most, I've seen something like 30kW of regen (and usually less) with the cruise control set at 65 mph, while coming down the big mountain passes here in CO. I've read elsewhere on TMC that the standard regen algorithm is tuned to yield a deceleration of 0.1g, with a cap of 60kW, though my empirical observation is that it's more complex than that. If we assume no friction and no aero resistance, a gravitational acceleration of 0.1g is achieved on a slope of about 5.73 degrees, also known as a 10% grade. But aero resistance at highway speeds is quite a large factor, so a highway grade would have to be a fair bit steeper than 10% before full regen is required to hold a constant speed. There's a tipping point, though: at higher speeds and depending on vehicle gross weight, 60kW of regen is no longer sufficient to give 0.1g of deceleration.

Where am I going with this? Beats the hell out of me...but I do agree that for longer, steeper slopes, using regen to hold a reasonably low constant speed ends up giving you more range than using regen to hold a higher constant speed, and even more so compared to freewheeling down the mountain at terminal velocity.
 
Assuming the regen is at least linear with speed, that is there's not an increase in generator efficiency at high speed, then I'd think that the the more regen and hence the slower you went the better.

There's a fixed amount of potential energy available from the loss of altitude, Mass x Height x Gravity's Acceleration, so the question is just where does the energy go. If you don't use the brakes, the energy loss is mostly air resistance, rolling resistance, and regen. Rolling resistance doesn't vary much with speed, but air resistance goes up with the square of the speed, so my guess is that the best strategy from the standpoint of maximizing charge is use as much regen as possible and go as slow as you can stand.

That would mean pretty slow speeds though, so to be practical, I'd suggest something like stay below 50 or so using just regen to control speed. Below 50, the air resistance is still reasonable, but because of the square law, the loss to air resistance starts getting pretty bad as you go much faster. At 70 almost twice as much energy will be lost to air resistance as at 50 (490 vs 250). Because of regen losses though, if you want to be going faster at the bottom, as abasile said, speeding up by backing off regen seems like a better strategy than using the motor.

Thanks! That makes a lot more sense than my thought process was.


My recent experience going down an incline was this: started from the Tejon Ranch SC with 182 miles heading for the Hawthorne SC 91 miles away. Going up the initial incline (5% grade) at 65 mph cost 802 Wh/mile or so but, I sustained 65-75 mph over the rest of the Grapevine while feathering the pedal to maintain the regen at 15-20 kW most of the time downhill.

Got to Hawthorne with 80-odd miles to spare and a sub-300 Wh/mile average (don't remember the exact figures). Was a bit wary of this stretch before the trip but, did it with a degree of comfort. Was fun to be passed by several cars on the climbs and catching up with them later downhill while their brakes were blazing ;)

Got to Hawthorne too late to enter the lobby (closes at 6 pm on weekends) but, caught a glimpse of the SC usage dashboard alongside the Model X prototype.

Will probably return tomorrow before heading out to Palm Springs. Speaking of which (and off-topic), has anyone figured out a relatively optimal way to get from Palm Springs to Tejon Ranch without doglegging through Hawthorne? The distance, at exactly 203 miles, is beyond my 60's capability for sure, but, was wondering if there's a decent charging option through San Bernardino...

Unfortunately, I think going through Hawthorne might be your best bet. There's quite a bit of hill climbing along the way to Tejon too (which I'm sure you know) that puts it even farther out of the 60's range.
 
Will probably return tomorrow before heading out to Palm Springs. Speaking of which (and off-topic), has anyone figured out a relatively optimal way to get from Palm Springs to Tejon Ranch without doglegging through Hawthorne? The distance, at exactly 203 miles, is beyond my 60's capability for sure, but, was wondering if there's a decent charging option through San Bernardino...
Lots of 30A J1772 along both the 210 and I10 (see plugshare), but I think you'd need to stop for 2 hours at one of those to make sure you had enough to make it to Tejon Ranch, no? So that wouldn't really save you much time overall. I do see a 14-50 outlet on Plugshare off I10 which would cut off some time, but no reviews. I don't see anything capable of 80A, but not sure if you have dual chargers, anyway.
 
Something about your statement just didn't quite seem right, and then I noted -- you're saying regen is 90% efficient! A little googling and I saw things like:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13584 http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?740-What-is-efficiency-of-regenerative-braking (see 2nd post)
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...3-tesla-model-s-the-good-the-bad-at-600-miles (2nd page) and http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/coasting-possible (I knew I had read discussion on this subject somwhere). No where did I see anything suggesting 90% efficiency, which I would find really hard to believe.

Could you illuminate us where the 10% number comes from?

First of all, my statement was that regen was about 80% efficient. My 90% number was for each way in the process; 0.9^2 is 0.81, and I called that 80%. My number came from the video below of JB Straubel talking at Stanford. Start at about 15:15 where he starts talking about power electronics aiming for the "high 9's" of efficiency. From that I used a low 9 number for the MS or about 90%.

What I did ignore was the efficiency of the electric motor/generator. That is a hard one to find, but here is one reference: Electrical Motor Efficiency. It states that there is a NEMA Design B standard that motors over 125 hp should be more than 92.4% efficient. If I assume that an MS is a little better than this, let's call it 94%.

If I update my MS power electronics efficiency estimate to 92%, then the product of the electronics and motor is 86.5%. If I then look at the two-way, in-and-out net efficiency, that is 86.5%^2 or about 75%.

75%, to maybe 70% if my estimates are too optimistic, is where the MS probably is for two-way, net regen efficiency. In reality, it is not that important for this discussion. I have descended long mountain hills at terminal velocity and regained no energy but a little kinetic energy at the bottom, and I have descended the same long hills and had significant extra chemical energy in battery at the bottom. The only place the regen efficiency comes into play is where you move from "coast through the valley" mode to "slow down and regen" mode. With better regen efficiency, you will use coast mode on smaller valleys.

Happy hypermiling! :wink:

 
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Unfortunately, I think going through Hawthorne might be your best bet. There's quite a bit of hill climbing along the way to Tejon too (which I'm sure you know) that puts it even farther out of the 60's range.

Lots of 30A J1772 along both the 210 and I10 (see plugshare), but I think you'd need to stop for 2 hours at one of those to make sure you had enough to make it to Tejon Ranch, no? So that wouldn't really save you much time overall. I do see a 14-50 outlet on Plugshare off I10 which would cut off some time, but no reviews. I don't see anything capable of 80A, but not sure if you have dual chargers, anyway.

Thanks, Gear, drees. Yes, have to go to Hawthorne, I guess. Should be early enough in the day next Sunday that I wouldn't run into heavy traffic around there.

A footnote: the Hawthorne SC area with the Tesla (former obelisk) tower, the "tide pool" and the SC structure itself is beautiful! It's like an oasis amidst all that 'industrial wasteland'. For non-locals, the in-car nav might leave you confused as to how to get there; it was even more challenging after it got dark. The entrance off Jack Northrop Ave. is the right one although the security chap let me in through the SpaceX gate on Rocket Rd. off Crenshaw Blvd. itself.
 
As to quantifying regen efficiency on long downhills, there has been some confusion in past discussions on EV forums owing to the use of different metrics:

1. Percentage of initial potential energy recovered. This percentage will tend to be relatively low, maybe 30-40% at best, because a percentage of the potential energy will be lost to drag. The energy loss to drag is affected by the speed of the vehicle, tires, and atmospheric conditions, and is essentially independent of the slope of the hill.

2. Percentage of "recoverable" energy that is actually recovered. "Recoverable" energy is the initial potential energy minus the total energy lost to drag. This would be in line with Cottonwood's figure of ~75%.

This probably needs to be a separate thread... :)
 
Just finished a visit to the Somerset PA supercharger that's under construction. The supervisor there confirmed that it should be operational between the 8th and 10th of January.

He also told me his next supercharger site would be Cranberry PA.

1 more in the area of Pierre SD around I-90 and Rt 183 should complete construction of the cross country run and a couple more on the east coast and that will all be under construction as well. :)
 
He also told me his next supercharger site would be Cranberry PA.

You don't have an address for this location do you? Would like to add it to the Tesla Wiki Map - http://www.teslawiki.net/supercharger/

- - - Updated - - -

1 more in the area of Pierre SD around I-90 and Rt 183 should complete construction of the cross country run and a couple more on the east coast and that will all be under construction as well. :)

You don't have an address for this location do you? Would like to add it to the Tesla Wiki Map - http://www.teslawiki.net/supercharger/
 
Nice sleuthing, Greg! I'll keep searching the Cranberry Twp for a permit address. They will publish the Dec permits after the holidays, and I will call Marshall Twp again as well, though they had no applications as of last week. Interested to see where it will end up...personally I would choose the parking lot behind Chipotle and Five Guys!
 

That makes 9 Superchargers to go live this month, exceeding the previous record of 7 for Oct and Nov this year. We still have 8 days left in December, and 3 are even work days...What are the odds of hitting 10 this month?

Supercharger Installs.png
 
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Does the 8 include Detroit Lake and Gallup? If not, 10 this month is more likely than not.

It's 9 so far, but who's counting...oh, I am. :wink:

My criteria has been to see 2 of 3 from "on the map", "in the list", or "on the car Nav screen." So far, Detroit Lake and Gallup do not pass that test. The raw data for turn on dates come from the date column in North American Tesla Supercharger locations - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum. Many people helped fill in that column for the historical sites, and I have been updating that date column for many new turn ons recently.

The growth in the rate of new turn ons is very exciting. I may be able to break out of my Colorado Supercharger box soon. :cool:
 
Murdo, SD supercharger has been confirmed by myfastlady on the TM forums. It is at Range Country Lodging. The people at the front desk say it has been under construction since Thanksgiving. Here is the address:

302 W 5th St, Murdo, SD

Google Maps

Great news!

Sweet! Looks like about a 1/2 mile walk to the Pioneer Auto Museum, and they allow leashed pets. This looks like a great location, in an area that is a long way from nowhere.

Even though it looks like I will be able to do it next month, I will probably wait for the drive to Minnesota until next summer. :wink: It will be California this spring.
 
It's 9 so far, but who's counting...oh, I am. :wink:

My criteria has been to see 2 of 3 from "on the map", "in the list", or "on the car Nav screen." So far, Detroit Lake and Gallup do not pass that test. The raw data for turn on dates come from the date column in North American Tesla Supercharger locations - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum. Many people helped fill in that column for the historical sites, and I have been updating that date column for many new turn ons recently.

The growth in the rate of new turn ons is very exciting. I may be able to break out of my Colorado Supercharger box soon. :cool:

Ellensberg and Detroit Lake just went live. Gallup will make 12 or 13?