Tesla support for powerwall sales options?

[psa928]

I'm an existing solar and Model X customer who is considering whether adding Powerwalls to our system would be a good idea. Does Tesla offer customer support to analyze things like usage, rates, solar charge, etc to determine whether Powerwalls would give a good return on investment?
Power outages aren't an issue where we live, but I suspect that switching to stored energy usage during peak electric rates might have some benefit.

 

[AEdennis]

If you're on net metering, quick rule of thumb for Californians is the PowerWalls don't really save you money. It does provide you with backup for PSPS events.

I'm on SCE and have three PW2 since August 2017. It's awesome to have, great that the PW2 is there as I've had several power outages in my neighborhood.

I am on legacy NEM for Solar since 2012 and have peak hours from 2p-8pm Pacific (used to be 10a-6pm ) and have the batteries now set to run during those times so that I don't consume any peak hours of energy and ensure that I send all the solar back to the grid (for maximum return). It's not significant enough to offset the cost of the batteries, however, because of our three EVs, and the sizing of solar to my roof and needs in 2012, I estimated approximately 6 years of break even, and achieved it at 3 years. So, I "rolled" the solar costs into my batteries.

When the utilities ditch NEM, I am ready for it as I can use Tesla software to structure my consumption and the like to minimize costs, but that's all theoretical.

In other localities where net metering may not exist, the payback for batteries such as PW2 is easier to justify, however in SoCal, between SCE, SDGE, and LADWP, there are good net metering and this takes away from purely a financial reason to install PW2.

Hope that helps

 

[jjrandorin]

OP to answer your question, no not really, tesla does not offer any analysis etc. Some third party solar companies might offer that to you, but teslas model specifically cut out anyone who would do that for you. If you use tesla, any of that analysis is on you to determine if you want powerwalls or not.

 

[garrett5688]

In TX, if you have a smart meter (most people do these days) you can download your usage in 15 minute intervals for the past year... then you can chart it in excel and see how load shifting could help.

not sure if CA or your utility offer the same data

 

[h2ofun]

If you're on net metering, quick rule of thumb for Californians is the PowerWalls don't really save you money. It does provide you with backup for PSPS events.

I'm on SCE and have three PW2 since August 2017. It's awesome to have, great that the PW2 is there as I've had several power outages in my neighborhood.

I am on legacy NEM for Solar since 2012 and have peak hours from 2p-8pm Pacific (used to be 10a-6pm ) and have the batteries now set to run during those times so that I don't consume any peak hours of energy and ensure that I send all the solar back to the grid (for maximum return). It's not significant enough to offset the cost of the batteries, however, because of our three EVs, and the sizing of solar to my roof and needs in 2012, I estimated approximately 6 years of break even, and achieved it at 3 years. So, I "rolled" the solar costs into my batteries.

When the utilities ditch NEM, I am ready for it as I can use Tesla software to structure my consumption and the like to minimize costs, but that's all theoretical.

In other localities where net metering may not exist, the payback for batteries such as PW2 is easier to justify, however in SoCal, between SCE, SDGE, and LADWP, there are good net metering and this takes away from purely a financial reason to install PW2.

Hope that helps

Yep, this is why I struggle, being in calif and having plenty of solar on TOU-c to have no true up, should I not get batteries. Since I have the generator already, is the overhead dealing with batteries and the forced switch to the EV2-a rates worth the hassle. For most there is no decent ROI for batteries, let alone most are shocked how little they can use them for,

 

[psa928]

Thanks for all the great replies. Yes we're on SDGE and net metering. We get hit pretty hard during peak usage (which I think is 4-9pm) and already have the car scheduled to charge during super off-peak (after midnight), which helps. But during the summer we're always running the AC in the afternoon/evening, and our 6kw solar can't keep up (although before we had the Tesla, we did a good job of averaging out to zero net usage over the year).

Sounds like I may do some analysis but it probably won't pay off.

It's a shame Tesla doesn't offer more support, when we first got solar in 2016 our SolarCity support was excellent in planning our our system, guess Tesla has different priorities...

 

[getakey]

Thanks for all the great replies. Yes we're on SDGE and net metering. We get hit pretty hard during peak usage (which I think is 4-9pm) and already have the car scheduled to charge during super off-peak (after midnight), which helps. But during the summer we're always running the AC in the afternoon/evening, and our 6kw solar can't keep up (although before we had the Tesla, we did a good job of averaging out to zero net usage over the year).

Sounds like I may do some analysis but it probably won't pay off.

It's a shame Tesla doesn't offer more support, when we first got solar in 2016 our SolarCity support was excellent in planning our our system, guess Tesla has different priorities...

I'm on PG&E net metering and PWs save me money. Will be more savings once I have to convert from EVA-1 to EVA-2. Uou can do the calc yourself. How many hours can you shift from Peak to Shoulder or Off Peak by rate arbitrage

 

[arnolddeleon]

My *very* rough analysis is that batteries in CA for customers of Investor Owned Utilities (IOUs) with solar can be break even. Put another way it will roughly pay for itself and you get backup power for free.

The numbers are getting better for batteries as the peak rates are shifting more and more to when the sun doesn't shine. The amount of non-bypassable charges (NBCs) is also increasing. This all works towards reducing the value of solar.

They can easily save money if the household power usage is really heavy during the peak hours. The problem with simulation using past usage is that the usage is likely influenced by the rates at the time of the usage.

They can also make sense if the freedom from "aggressively" managing household energy use has utility to you. Will your partner be happier with you?

I have SGIP funded batteries. The numbers were pretty simple for them 3 years ago. At the price I was paying for I would get backup power for free. What I've observed over the last 2.5 years is I don't really worry about time of use (TOU) for ordinary household things (e.g cooking/washing dishes/HVAC) anymore. I'm obligated to do some amount of cycling anyway (SGIP) so why worry? My pool pump still runs off hours, my cars still charge off hours. There is a non-zero chance that they will start saving money in a year or two as my grandfathered E-6 rate expires. Similar analysis I believe applies for the grandfather EV-A rates.

I also predict that within the next few years Tesla or someone will offer some sort of virtual power plant option that will increase the value of the batteries. I'm not counting on this but it could be a nice bonus.

 

[h2ofun]

My *very* rough analysis is that batteries in CA for customers of Investor Owned Utilities (IOUs) with solar can be break even. Put another way it will roughly pay for itself and you get backup power for free.

The numbers are getting better for batteries as the peak rates are shifting more and more to when the sun doesn't shine. The amount of non-bypassable charges (NBCs) is also increasing. This all works towards reducing the value of solar.

They can easily save money if the household power usage is really heavy during the peak hours. The problem with simulation using past usage is that the usage is likely influenced by the rates at the time of the usage.

They can also make sense if the freedom from "aggressively" managing household energy use has utility to you. Will your partner be happier with you?

I have SGIP funded batteries. The numbers were pretty simple for them 3 years ago. At the price I was paying for I would get backup power for free. What I've observed over the last 2.5 years is I don't really worry about time of use (TOU) for ordinary household things (e.g cooking/washing dishes/HVAC) anymore. I'm obligated to do some amount of cycling anyway (SGIP) so why worry? My pool pump still runs off hours, my cars still charge off hours. There is a non-zero chance that they will start saving money in a year or two as my grandfathered E-6 rate expires. Similar analysis I believe applies for the grandfather EV-A rates.

I also predict that within the next few years Tesla or someone will offer some sort of virtual power plant option that will increase the value of the batteries. I'm not counting on this but it could be a nice bonus.

What does this statement mean? "I'm obligated to do some amount of cycling anyway (SGIP) so why worry?"

 

[arnolddeleon]

What does this statement mean? "I'm obligated to do some amount of cycling anyway (SGIP) so why worry?"

For SGIP the batteries must discharge a a certain amount of over the year. The best value for discharging battery is during peak. So given the obligation I don't worry (much) about using the batteries during peak hours since I have to have some amount of battery usage (discharge) anyway. This is very hand wavy. The amount an SGIP customer is obligated to discharge is relatively small and if I maintained a miserly approach to using peak power I could likely still meet my battery discharge obligations. The bottom line is I get "worry free peak usage."

 

[h2ofun]

For SGIP the batteries must discharge a a certain amount of over the year. The best value for discharging battery is during peak. So given the obligation I don't worry (much) about using the batteries during peak hours since I have to have some amount of battery usage (discharge) anyway. This is very hand wavy. The amount an SGIP customer is obligated to discharge is relatively small and if I maintained a miserly approach to using peak power I could likely still meet my battery discharge obligations. The bottom line is I get "worry free peak usage."

How are you meeting this obligation? What exactly is it? How is it reported? Do you check on you and give feedback? I am just getting different answers from different folks about this. And any idea what would happen to you if you did not meet this obligation amount?

 

[arnolddeleon]

How are you meeting this obligation? What exactly is it? How is it reported? Do you check on you and give feedback? I am just getting different answers from different folks about this. And any idea what would happen to you if you did not meet this obligation amount?

The paperwork gave the amount and other details, I don't recall the precisely off hand. What I do recall are:

I'm meeting my obligation because my batteries are discharging some of time during peak hours (If I put my powerwalls in backup only mode they wouldn't meet my obligation)
Tesla has the data
They can review the data if needed but to date that hasn't happened but I don't know if Tesla is reporting the information
They can ask for money back if you don't meet your obligations

@miimura usually knows this in far greater detail.

 

[jjrandorin]

How are you meeting this obligation? What exactly is it? How is it reported? Do you check on you and give feedback? I am just getting different answers from different folks about this. And any idea what would happen to you if you did not meet this obligation amount?

Energy Incentives | Powerwall Support

SGIP Program Requirements
The goal of the SGIP program is to reduce load on the grid and reduce greenhouse gas usage. In order to participate in the program, SGIP requires you to use Powerwall to help the program meet this goal. Powerwall must meet a ‘cycling’ requirement where Powerwall will need to fully charge and discharge at least 52 times, or 687 kWh, per year.

Tesla has designed Powerwall to comply with these requirements with little impact to customers.

There is no customer facing reporting on this, and the information I remember receiving from tesla says that they will alert you if you are not meeting your requirement.

This is standard SGIP requirements. Equity and resiliency may be different. Your installer could likely tell you if thats the case.

 

[h2ofun]

Energy Incentives | Powerwall Support

SGIP Program Requirements
The goal of the SGIP program is to reduce load on the grid and reduce greenhouse gas usage. In order to participate in the program, SGIP requires you to use Powerwall to help the program meet this goal. Powerwall must meet a ‘cycling’ requirement where Powerwall will need to fully charge and discharge at least 52 times, or 687 kWh, per year.

Tesla has designed Powerwall to comply with these requirements with little impact to customers.

There is no customer facing reporting on this, and the information I remember receiving from tesla says that they will alert you if you are not meeting your requirement.

This is standard SGIP requirements. Equity and resiliency may be different. Your installer could likely tell you if thats the case.

The paperwork gave the amount and other details, I don't recall the precisely off hand. What I do recall are:

I'm meeting my obligation because my batteries are discharging some of time during peak hours (If I put my powerwalls in backup only mode they wouldn't meet my obligation)
Tesla has the data
They can review the data if needed but to date that hasn't happened but I don't know if Tesla is reporting the information
They can ask for money back if you don't meet your obligations

@miimura usually knows this in far greater detail.

That is what I kinda assumed.

 

[h2ofun]

Energy Incentives | Powerwall Support

SGIP Program Requirements
The goal of the SGIP program is to reduce load on the grid and reduce greenhouse gas usage. In order to participate in the program, SGIP requires you to use Powerwall to help the program meet this goal. Powerwall must meet a ‘cycling’ requirement where Powerwall will need to fully charge and discharge at least 52 times, or 687 kWh, per year.

Tesla has designed Powerwall to comply with these requirements with little impact to customers.

There is no customer facing reporting on this, and the information I remember receiving from tesla says that they will alert you if you are not meeting your requirement.

This is standard SGIP requirements. Equity and resiliency may be different. Your installer could likely tell you if thats the case.

Interesting about no customer facing data. In the winter it would be just about impossible to meet the requirement so I do not produce that much solar. Shall see what happens.

 

[AEdennis]

The SGIP requirements is effectively the size of the batteries you have over 52 weeks. So, you can cycle through greater than that in some times, and then little in others. The settlement is annual, much like solar itself.

In my case, I usually use 20% M-F in the Winter, and greater in the Summer,to ensure that I really comply, also have it scheduled to run on batteries an extra 30 minutes to an hour during the weekend morning (just after super off-peak at 0830) so that I can recover and recharge all of the charge used to store in the batteries to start the week at full.

 

[h2ofun]

The SGIP requirements is effectively the size of the batteries you have over 52 weeks. So, you can cycle through greater than that in some times, and then little in others. The settlement is annual, much like solar itself.

In my case, I usually use 20% M-F in the Winter, and greater in the Summer,to ensure that I really comply, also have it scheduled to run on batteries an extra 30 minutes to an hour during the weekend morning (just after super off-peak at 0830) so that I can recover and recharge all of the charge used to store in the batteries to start the week at full.

Yep, the more batteries one gets, the more one has to use.

So, what setting on your PW's during these times?

Are you on ev2-a?

How many batteries do you have from SGIP? Did you get paid out in 2020? Are you ER? Are you taking the ITC?

So you only run batteries weekend mornings so the solar charges them up the rest of the day?

 

[jjrandorin]

Interesting about no customer facing data. In the winter it would be just about impossible to meet the requirement so I do not produce that much solar. Shall see what happens.

The requirement is 687 of cycling per year, or approximately 1 full cycle of the powerwall 2 per 7 day week (not per day). if one is using their powerwalls to cover peak from 4-9pm, for example, it would be virtually impossible to not meet this requirement.

As long as someone doesnt leave it in backup only for months, it shouldnt be an issue.

 

[h2ofun]

The requirement is 687 of cycling per year, or approximately 1 full cycle of the powerwall 2 per 7 day week (not per day). if one is using their powerwalls to cover peak from 4-9pm, for example, it would be virtually impossible to not meet this requirement.

As long as someone doesnt leave it in backup only for months, it shouldnt be an issue.

If I end up with 5, .....

 

[AEdennis]

Yep, the more batteries one gets, the more one has to use.

So, what setting on your PW's during these times?

Are you on ev2-a?

How many batteries do you have from SGIP? Did you get paid out in 2020? Are you ER? Are you taking the ITC?

So you only run batteries weekend mornings so the solar charges them up the rest of the day?

I'm on SCE.

So the tariff is TOU-D-A. It's a whole house TOU account.

I have 3x Powerwalls, so I have to cycle 40.5 kWh per week. During each day, I cycle from 8-10kWh through the batteries during peak hours (2pm-8pm nowadays, used to be 12-6pm when I first started on the program.)... So, by Friday, I get to the minimum. On the weekends, I run on batteries 8:30am- 9:30am... By Monday, I'm at 100% to start, and go all over again.

I'm on Advanced, Cost-Saving, and 50% reserved for power outages.