TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Tesla Takes Tug-of-War With Ford to Twitter

Discussion in 'Cybertruck' started by TMC Staff, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. TMC Staff

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,136
    Tesla showed a video during the Cybertruck unveiling event of the all electric pickup dragging a Ford F-150 in a tug-of-war. Ford has called the video absurd. Cybertruck pulls F-150 uphill pic.twitter.com/OfaqUkrDI3— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 24, 2019 Some challenged the fairness of the video. In fact, scientist Neil deGrasse Tyson chimed in with a...
    READ FULL ARTICLE
     
  2. Curt Renz

    Curt Renz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2013
    Messages:
    5,820
    Location:
    USA
  3. SonOfSimon

    SonOfSimon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Victoria, BC, Canada
    Here's the physics:
     
    • Like x 2
    • Disagree x 1
  4. Electruck

    Electruck Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2019
    Messages:
    184
    Location:
    WI
    Here's the physics: Ford lost, fair and square, truck vs. truck. No stunt.

    Truck pulling a rail engine? Stunt.

    Truck pulling the space shuttle? Stunt.

    Ford CEOs declined the re-match even under their turf and parameters, which Musk offered. No stunt.
     
    • Disagree x 3
    • Like x 2
  5. CarlK

    CarlK Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,919
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    No matter how they want do it the electric will always win (despite what that video says). They are probably regretting the challenge now. It does not matter. Elon will redo it anyway.
     
    • Like x 1
  6. CarlV

    CarlV Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2019
    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Highlands Ranch, CO
    I wonder if the torque from the Cybertruk would beat a semi in a similar tug-of-war. I am not a physics expert but it would be interesting to see. Where's Mythbusters when you need them!!!!
     
  7. 240W

    240W Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Earth
    So he says the Ford was rwd, sure, we can see that. But do we know if the CT used was awd?

    And after all that explanation, how would ford win, when would CT be at a disadvantage...
     
  8. trak0r

    trak0r Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2019
    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Indiana
    They will decline until they have their full electric platform ready to show to the world. Then it won't be an easy win for Tesla. Think about if the trucks had exactly the same weight over each tire, tires being the same type, pressure and ultimately patch area, the same amount of distribution of torque available to each tire (evenly match), then it would be more fair test. To give the f150 the greatest advantage, throw it into 4 low with same parameters, and 'friction', it would basically come down to the vehicle that breaks traction, even just one tire, that will have moved from static to dynamic friction and lose. To predict that outcome of either vehicle spinning, it comes down to who has the best traction control. The Tesla has the best advantage here because it can quickly release the torque to get back to static friction (edge) on tire that broke loose first. With braking being equal in stopping power, the ICE setup, even in such an advantaged high torque ratio in 4 low, would have to manage the engine/transmission moment of inertias to reduce power quickly enough to get back to static faster than the Tesla. This is unlikely and one of the main selling points of the electric powertrain and ultimately would easily hand the win to Tesla (Think ludicrous launch mode holding car back at ultimate static friction).
     
  9. jboy210

    jboy210 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    Northern California
    "With America’s best-selling truck for 42 years, we’ve always focused on serving our truck customers regardless of what others say or do. We look forward to our all-new F-150 hybrid coming next year and all-electric F-150 in a few years."

    Interesting info in Ford's response.

    Hybrid F-150 coming next year
    - Why are the spending money to design, develop, and support a hybrid with a EV hot on it's heels.

    all-electric F-150 in a few years - wasn't it coming in 2 years? Have the timetables moved? Maybe it is not as easy as they thought. Or ....

    ;)
     
  10. jboy210

    jboy210 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    Northern California
    That is not the choice consumer can make. The consumer can pick the CyberTruck or the F-150 as designed. And they are designed differently, have different weight distributions, torque distributions are different, and so on. This is Truck A versus truck B. Same choice a consumer must make.
     
    • Like x 2
  11. trak0r

    trak0r Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2019
    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Indiana
    #12 trak0r, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    That wasn't at all the point, but yes, the consumer is not setting up the test in the video (which I believe it to be a pathetic attempt to win over the uninformed). To win over the average truck consumer (i.e. that may have performed in tug-o-wars, towed heavy trailers or driven light in the rear-slides easily), what I'm suggesting will remove the most obvious discrepancies between the two platforms. To be fair, to do exactly what I'm saying outside a lab setting, would prove difficult by the average consumer, but a responsible attempt by an unbiased test between the two trucks (loaded up to the max payload) and fitting each vehicle with the same tires, could show the Tesla superior in a much stronger light. I see the fast lane doing a proper test on these two vehicles at some point in 2023 when Tesla finally releases it :)
     
  12. pilotSteve

    pilotSteve Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,406
    Location:
    Prescott Az
    CT? Whats that? Its just a TLA to me "(two.... or three letter acronym"). Please don't assume.....
     
  13. Cheburashka

    Cheburashka Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Messages:
    1,800
    Location:
    Los Gatos, CA
    The demo was pathetic.

    How about a CAT dozer/backhoe with 460hp. Since it's double the weight of Cybertruck it will pull it easily.

    Honestly, the test was snake oil and theatrics. Sad.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Funny x 1
  14. duncan

    duncan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    East Gore
    It's slightly worse than that an IC engine takes at least one revolution to change torque - an EV needs one controller cycle
    The EV can change torque about 100 times faster - BEFORE you add the effects of the moments of inertia
     
    • Like x 1
  15. Tessaract

    Tessaract Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2019
    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    Ottawa
    That "loaded up to the max payload" would seem to be conflicting with your suggestion of "exactly the same weight over each tire" from your initial post. You gotta decide one or the other. Can't have it both ways. And what if the two vehicles don't support "the same tires" (note that even the same model tire is sometimes designed differently for different tire sizes). I think a fair comparison, in a commercial sense, is to get two trucks with mostly equivalent features (both AWD, same bed sizes, OEM tires) at a similar price point. That's the comparison between two vehicles someone can actually buy, and not a hypothetical vehicle with parts replaced and no longer the OEM price.
     
    • Informative x 1
  16. trak0r

    trak0r Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2019
    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Indiana
    Original post was focusing on a lab setting, my second post ("To be fair, to do exactly what I'm saying outside a lab setting, would prove difficult by the average consumer, but a responsible attempt by an unbiased test between the two trucks") really meant to address that a real world test would need to be close to be fair. Maybe not to their respective max load ratings, but a load that effectively made the rear axle loaded the same is a better way to say it. I guess we could test it both ways to see which would be more capable depending on if max load or whether equivalent axle loading is more appropriate.
    I agree that price point is typically the way vehicles are compared, but I'm not sure that will be enough here due to radically different way the vehicles are designed and will operate.
     
  17. Tessaract

    Tessaract Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2019
    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    Ottawa
     
  18. trak0r

    trak0r Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2019
    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Indiana
    Well... not one rev if more than a single cylinder engine. firings = #cyl/2 for 4 stroke, so a 6 cylinder would've fire 3 times per rev. I would be interested in the lag times of commanded torque vs actual. In addition, the controller can retard cylinders very quickly, but no where near as effective as the inverter controllers fpga's running at 20 khz or whatever.
     
  19. Tessaract

    Tessaract Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2019
    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Hi trak0r: Yeah. Understand your point. To your point, there's a difference between testing to see which vehicle implements traction control better (for example), vs testing in a commercial sense (my language: perhaps someone else has a better phrase). Note that testing in a commercial sense doesn't try to equalize the vehicles, or equalize the conditions, but seeks to establish which vehicle gives the better performance/value for the money at rated conditions. If one vehicle enjoys an "unfair advantage" because it's designed radically differently, so be it. Tough nuts to the loser...he can always improve his design to improve value.
     
    • Like x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC