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Tesla tech is great, but other companies are starting to push

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well when Porsche actually release the Taycan with a 100KWHish battery and the ability to regularly add 80% charge (so that will be 10%-90% then) in 15 minutes
AND
offer an 8 year/Unlimited mileage/max 30% degradation warranty on the battery
AND
see the the batteries do not degrade more than a Tesla in real world use
WITHOUT
you needing to hire a lawyer to read all the small print exceptions and exclusions

then we can all call game on.

Until then folks will be understandably sceptical given VAG track record in honesty.
 
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well when Porsche actually release the Taycan with a 100KWHish battery and the ability to regularly add 80% charge (so that will be 10%-90% then) in 15 minutes
AND
offer an 8 year/Unlimited mileage/max 30% degradation warranty on the battery
AND
see the the batteries do not degrade more than a Tesla in real world use
WITHOUT
you needing to hire a lawyer to read all the small print exceptions and exclusions

then we can all call game on.

Until then folks will be understandably sceptical given VAG track record in honesty.
First, not everyone will care to trade better phone integration and reliable non-beta safety features for the additional battery warranty.

Second, Tesla doesn't exactly have a good honesty track record. Remember the 691hp, yea I know eventually they settled on "motors are capable but not he car", but they tried many different way to weasle out of it instead of clearly stating what they eventually were forced to after the Euro lawsuit. Not the only time. Remember "AP1 will find you anywhere on private property", "blind spot warning"?

All that said, I hope there are people who will stick with Tesla no matter what. If Taycan end up performing the same as my P85D but with better safety and tech features, able to sustain speed without limiting power, and able to charge at 350KW, I don't want Tesla values to drop if I want to trade my P85D for a Taycan.
 
Not all of the world is the same.
"Some" people is quite a bold statement. What's your point of reference? My evidence is as anecdotal as yours, but no one I know is interested in self-driving cars, other than when stuck in traffic jams. I have seen polls about the subject and again, the vast majority of people who were asked about it stated that FSD was either of no or very little interest to them.
So to say it would be a "huge market advantage" is quite an exaggeration. And even if it were, all automakers are pursuing the subject. From what I have seen of prototypes by BMW, Audi, Merc, Volvo, Jaguar, etc. nothing Tesla currently offers seems any more impressive.

Think what you will but I promise you that when FSD gets here, whether it be Tesla or another auto maker, it will signal the immediate paradigm shift from human to machine driving. People think they want to drive until they don't have to...

Just watch, FSD will explode in use and popularity once it gets here. While you may have had this conversation with your friends/family, it's all circumstantial until the functionality actually comes to market. It's absolutely not a huge exaggeration at all, I actually understated it to be honest. FSD will be as paradigm shifting as going from horse and buggy to the automobile.

Jeff
 
First, not everyone will care to trade better phone integration and reliable non-beta safety features for the additional battery warranty.

Second, Tesla doesn't exactly have a good honesty track record. Remember the 691hp, yea I know eventually they settled on "motors are capable but not he car", but they tried many different way to weasle out of it instead of clearly stating what they eventually were forced to after the Euro lawsuit. Not the only time. Remember "AP1 will find you anywhere on private property", "blind spot warning"?

All that said, I hope there are people who will stick with Tesla no matter what. If Taycan end up performing the same as my P85D but with better safety and tech features, able to sustain speed without limiting power, and able to charge at 350KW, I don't want Tesla values to drop if I want to trade my P85D for a Taycan.

Fact of the matter is that buyers in the $80K+ luxury car market are a fickle bunch. Take a look at used S-Class, 7-series, Audi A8, Jaguar XJ values- They all plummet. MS values drop as well, but not as badly as the other luxury saloons. Once there are other players in this space, my guess is that Tesla values will drop. All that said, if the Taycan is anything like other Porsche's the base MSRP will be a starting point that will likely be half of a fully optioned version. My bet is that there will also be a supply shortage for the first few years. We saw this with the new Panamera, Cayenne, 991.2, etc. If those aren't available, I'm not sure how much Tesla values will suffer. Also from everything I've seen, no other mfg has an "autopilot" or tech stack that even comes close. They just excel in the luxury and build quality department.
 
Just watch, FSD will explode in use and popularity once it gets here. While you may have had this conversation with your friends/family, it's all circumstantial until the functionality actually comes to market. It's absolutely not a huge exaggeration at all, I actually understated it to be honest. FSD will be as paradigm shifting as going from horse and buggy to the automobile.
Key is "once it gets here". With the other auto manufacturers lagging in FSD capabilities, I am doubtful congress is going to be in any hurry to nudge Tesla forward with regulatory approval. Government move slow, not expeditiously. We aren't waiting for the speed of the free market to have FSD. FSD is more-or-less here. We are waiting for the lackadaisical, convoluted bureaucracy of government. I personally will be shocked to see a green light in under 5 years.
 
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Key is "once it gets here". With the other auto manufacturers lagging in FSD capabilities, I am doubtful congress is going to be in any hurry to nudge Tesla forward with regulatory approval. Government move slow, not expeditiously. We aren't waiting for the speed of the free market to have FSD. FSD is more-or-less here. We are waiting for the lackadaisical, convoluted bureaucracy of government. I personally will be shocked to see a green light in under 5 years.

Absolutely agree. The road to innovation is paved with technological delays and bureaucracy.

Jeff
 
Think what you will but I promise you that when FSD gets here, whether it be Tesla or another auto maker, it will signal the immediate paradigm shift from human to machine driving. People think they want to drive until they don't have to...

Just watch, FSD will explode in use and popularity once it gets here. While you may have had this conversation with your friends/family, it's all circumstantial until the functionality actually comes to market. It's absolutely not a huge exaggeration at all, I actually understated it to be honest. FSD will be as paradigm shifting as going from horse and buggy to the automobile.

Jeff
I agree. Not that long ago the initial iPhone came out and many were saying no way they would drop their Blackberry Keyboards. I also know a number in my family (like my wife) who has ZERO desire for FSD and has no interest in using AP in my Tesla (again my wife). My prediction is it will be the same with FSD as it was with the iPhone. As Apple said they create products that customers do not know they want (or something like that). Once our Tesla can take my wife to work and drop her at the door and then come and get her when she is ready to leave her attitude will certainly change.
 
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Absolutely agree. The road to innovation is paved with technological delays and bureaucracy.

Jeff
Yea, because @Smokin said (in the post you absolutely agreed with), FSD is already here and Tesla could be releasing it tomorrow if it wasn't for government red tape. Poor guy in California who had to die because the government forced Tesla to use EAP which slams into stationary objects like the fatal concrete median - if only the government let Tesla use the FSD version that doesn't slam into firetrucks and stuff.

I don't think I'm even going to try to argue with this level of Tesla cool-aid overdose and/or government conspiracy theories.
 
Yea, because @Smokin said (in the post you absolutely agreed with), FSD is already here and Tesla could be releasing it tomorrow if it wasn't for government red tape. Poor guy in California who had to die because the government forced Tesla to use EAP which slams into stationary objects like the fatal concrete median - if only the government let Tesla use the FSD version that doesn't slam into firetrucks and stuff.

I don't think I'm even going to try to argue with this level of Tesla cool-aid overdose and/or government conspiracy theories.

What... FSD is NOT already here... Where did you get that from anyhow? We have no idea how close Tesla is to actually having working FSD software.

Your entire post is laughable...

Jeff
 
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What... FSD is NOT already here... Where did you get that from anyhow? We have no idea how close Tesla is to actually having working FSD software.

Your entire post is laughable...

Jeff
Did you read the post you "absolutely agreed" to (see bolded statement)?
Key is "once it gets here". With the other auto manufacturers lagging in FSD capabilities, I am doubtful congress is going to be in any hurry to nudge Tesla forward with regulatory approval. Government move slow, not expeditiously. We aren't waiting for the speed of the free market to have FSD. FSD is more-or-less here. We are waiting for the lackadaisical, convoluted bureaucracy of government. I personally will be shocked to see a green light in under 5 years.
 
Ugh... Why are you being difficult? I was agreeing, and didn't think I needed to put any context around it, about the "once it gets here" statement regarding the software aspect as it pertains to how the government might interfere from a regulatory perspective...

Jeff
The problem was the post you were agreeing with basically alleged Tesla is already here, but blocked by the government. How was I supposed to know you were agreeing to some subset of the post. Maybe next time quote the sentence you are agreeing with, or you may be accused of agreeing with the whole thing.

For example, if I said:
"Elon Musk is the CEO of Tesla and SpaceX. He lives on Mars and commutes to Earth every day."
and someone said "I absolutely agree", you can't blame people for thinking that the responder believes Elon lives on Mars, even though they may have been only agreeing with "Elon Musk if the CEO of Tesla and SpaceX".
 
First, not everyone will care to trade better phone integration and reliable non-beta safety features for the additional battery warranty.... If Taycan end up performing the same as my P85D but with better safety and tech features, able to sustain speed without limiting power, and able to charge at 350KW, I don't want Tesla values to drop if I want to trade my P85D for a Taycan.

I think you rather miss the point.
The reason that Tesla residuals stay high are precisely beacuase you can buy a used one with negligible drop in range.

Whilst we have no idea what Porsche are truly doing, it's pretty clear they are pushing fast charging. We all know that battery design is a balance of parameters, so fast charge is will be at the expense of longeivity. Fair enough you say, you would rather have more Porsche things at the expense of range.

But then you come to sell. Questions like how often has it been fast charged, has it been derated, what range is left - you know all the typical questions on here, suddenly are magnified. Result - depreciation. Who's going to touch one that might need a new battery.
Careful what you wish for.

Tesla have carefully pretty much negated battery degradation as an issue which has in turn given great confidence in EVs, this may yet prove to be their strongest suit as others fall foul of this in their efforts to compete.
I still believe that the Taycan will be a great car, it absolutely ought to be, given it's from the stable of one of the world's largest manufacturers who have had 8 years to study Tesla.

Will it eclipse Tesla - I doubt it, but what I cannot stand is the BS from Porsche/VAG though, very much typical of their style these days but entirely unnecessary. For that reason and the lies and weasel words of dieselgate I dont care how good it is, I will no be buying one.
Frankly I am astounded at how quickly people will overlook such corporate malpratice in their own self-interest
 
Frankly I am astounded at how quickly people will overlook such corporate malpratice in their own self-interest

If I wouldn't buy cars from car companies that lie or weasel themselves out of commitments, I wouldn't be buying Tesla's either. I still own the "691hp P85D" which will "find me anywhere on private property", which in turned out to be a 463hp car which will drive without a driver in its seat up to 40 feet in a straight line while I'm holding a button and watching so it doesn't hit anything. Tesla saying "motors are capable, but not the rest of the car" is like VW saying "it passes the test in the test facility, we never said anything about the roads".

I bought 2 more Tesla since P85D, just don't trust Tesla on anything I cannot verity on the day of delivery (hence didn't pay for EAP/FSD on either one of the last two cars, also didn't pay for P). I gotta say though, I still have more trust in Porsche promises and specs than Tesla - maybe it's subjective because Porsche has in the past met their commitments to me (I never owned a diesel) , while Tesla has been missing them and worse, gave me weasel excuses or radio silence - for P85D hp it was J.B.'s blog first how EV hp is different than ICE hp (wtf?) and then finally after the settlement in Europe, published actual number and told us how motors are capable but not the car. So not much different than VW - took a court settlement to make them admit to actual numbers.
 
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Think what you will but I promise you that when FSD gets here, whether it be Tesla or another auto maker, it will signal the immediate paradigm shift from human to machine driving. People think they want to drive until they don't have to...

Just watch, FSD will explode in use and popularity once it gets here. While you may have had this conversation with your friends/family, it's all circumstantial until the functionality actually comes to market. It's absolutely not a huge exaggeration at all, I actually understated it to be honest. FSD will be as paradigm shifting as going from horse and buggy to the automobile.

Jeff

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree here. :)

I make an understated statement as well: I am certain that I won't see fully self driving cars in the hands of Joe Everybody, i.e. in widespread use over here before the year 2030 at the very earliest. No, make that 2040.

You know, I have kids future tech books from the 1970s that predicted we would have fully self driving cars by 1990!
Then again the same books also predicted we would have cargo being transported worldwide mainly by gigantic airships by 2000, and transporter technology by 2020. So much for that. ;)
 
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@whitex I feel your pain on the 691hp issue. Fortunately and thanks to this forum I got suspicious just in time, did the math realised it was BS and went for 85D instead. You will find on that thread that I called out Tesla on that issue as I will any company the misrepresents its postion of products.

I do think there is a world of differnence though to VAG, one of the largest automotive companies in the world, and the sheer magnitude of their corruption through multiple levels of managemnt, the damage to the atmosphere which is still ongoing and literally to peoples lives.

Like you I also dislike Tesla/Elon's excessive claims about the capabilities of AP, heck mine has even reverted to randomly trying to dive down left hand turns it sees, so L4/5 FSD remains a distant future goal and not with the current hardware but no way does this match VAGs corporate mafeasance and I just treat claims as ambitions and no more.
Whilst it in no way affects the magnitude of the crime, remember that you guys in the US got $2B remedy, in the UK we got nothing despite the fact we have vastly more VAG diesels on the road than you had in the whole of the US. I have to sit in traffic with these (and other) manufacturers diesel belching soot at me every single day. Even more gallign to me is that I used to drive some of their diesels and even complained at them about their economy claims which even I could see were flat out false - a hint at the time perhaps of the wider issue?
Further the ones that VAG have supposedly modified are apparently running even worse and showing a noticeable drop in power. Go figure.
 
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