Tesla (the company) killing itself slowly?

[ucmndd]

Yeah, now imagine the $35K demographic soccer mom of 3, 2 hours from a SC, that needs her car fixed within the week, but is offered an Uber back home. Forget it, ain't gonna happen. She's going to Toyota, Honda, VW.

Unless Tesla comes to the soccer field and fixes it right there, or even OTA, which is increasingly more practical for pretty much anything that doesn’t require a lift - if Tesla can get their act together and deliver.

 

[Big Toys]

they are also implementing a more efficient model for customer support and vehicle service,

Do you really believe there is evidence of a successful model, when Lord Elon says in few words that it is not??

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Unless Tesla comes to the soccer field and fixes it right there, or even OTA, which is increasingly more practical for pretty much anything that doesn’t require a lift - if Tesla can get their act together and deliver.

true

Yeah, now imagine the $35K demographic soccer mom of 3, 2 hours from a SC, that needs her car fixed within the week, but is offered an Uber back home. Forget it, ain't gonna happen. She's going to Toyota, Honda, VW.

I had the option of an Enterprise supplied Model S (75), I didnt really need it and Uber got me home to the stable of other cars I can drive.

 

[Big Toys]

I've made this analogy before in the context of poor customer service and the ability for companies to overcome and succeed but I'll do it again: How many people remember the early days of Apple? With their horrible 90-day warranty on extremely high priced items. The magazine Mac User had a graphic in each month's issue counting how long Apple's "insufficient warranty" had continued. After a great deal of shaming and customer complaints, Apple finally increased their factory warranty to one year.

And who remembers the arrogance of the Apple repair places in the mid 80's? The repair people at my local Apple dealer back then were typically snotty, impatient, and condescending. And they acted like they were doing us a supreme favor by just taking the time to work on our Apple products. On top of that there were a zillion Macintosh models, with very little to differentiate them in the market, not to mention the Apple clones that were cutting into Apple's sales. OS 7 was a joke it crashed so often. The OS roadmap was as chaotic as the model lineup.

It's easy to witness the culture of innovation and lofty goals that permeate Tesla and witness their disruptive technology that drives other automotive companies into a new direction and compare Tesla to Apple and those comparisons are justified, I believe. But let's remember that as successful as Apple is now, they had some really horrible periods that soured a lot of customers and put into serious doubt the ability of Apple to survive.

No, Tesla isn't Apple and all analogies fall short in some way; however, I think Tesla can, and will, learn, much the same way that Apple did, and we'll look back on the painful delivery and service experiences in the same way that people talk about how Apple used to be in their early days.

Apple survived because the gov't essentially FORCED Microsoft to allow them to survive. Our younger fanboys here were not around at the time. It won't be this way with Tesla.

 

[Big Toys]

true

I had the option of an Enterprise supplied Model S (75), I didnt really need it and Uber got me home to the stable of other cars I can drive.

Sure, but not every garage has 3+ cars to choose from.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Sure, but not every garage has 3+ cars to choose from.

Then maybe stick with the Honda, its probably a better option for soccer mommies anyway with all those cheerios, sticky food, and dog hair, Hell when our kids were little thats what we had our Odyssey for, it was the family tank, then we moved up to the Sienna Limited, then jumped to Tesla once the kids got their own cars.. I see your point, but I'm not in the group that thinks Tesla needs to make an everyman car, let Kia or Hyundai do that or whatever brand the Chinese invasion of cheap electric cars brings in a couple years.

 

[alcibiades]

Then maybe stick with the Honda, its probably a better option for soccer mommies anyway with all those cheerios, sticky food, and dog hair, Hell when our kids were little thats what we had our Odyssey for, it was the family tank, then we moved up to the Sienna Limited, then jumped to Tesla once the kids got their own cars.. I see your point, but I'm not in the group that thinks Tesla needs to make an everyman car, let Kia or Hyundai do that or whatever brand the Chinese invasion of cheap electric cars brings in a couple years.

Sorry you couldn't afford an X when your kids were little or that you think people should own lots and lots of cars to put in their big old garages in the McMansion-burbs, but neither means that I should have to have an extra car because Tesla service didn't advertise that it sucks. In fact, to the contrary, around the time I got my X, Musk announced how I'd have a top of the line X as a loaner when I needed service.

Of course, my car was also supposed to have EAP in an OTA update in 12/16. I believed that, too.

 

[ucmndd]

Sorry you couldn't afford an X when your kids were little or that you think people should own lots and lots of cars to put in their big old garages in the McMansion-burbs, but neither means that I should have to have an extra car because Tesla service didn't advertise that it sucks.

Surely nobody has a gun to your wealthy head forcing you to keep the car. If the service sucks that bad then sell it and move on.

 

[alcibiades]

Surely nobody has a gun to your wealthy head forcing you to keep the car. If the service sucks that bad then sell it and move on.

It is not very easy to sell a broken car. And I wasn't the sexist jackass telling people how to spend their money or what cars are or are not appropriate for "soccer mommies."

But if you'd like to buy my car, please share your offer, Mr. Bigtalk.

Take your enable-ist nonsense elsewhere, or step up and buy it. Come on. You know you can afford it.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Sorry you couldn't afford an X when your kids were little or that you think people should own lots and lots of cars to put in their big old garages in the McMansion-burbs, but neither means that I should have to have an extra car because Tesla service didn't advertise that it sucks. In fact, to the contrary, around the time I got my X, Musk announced how I'd have a top of the line X as a loaner when I needed service.

Of course, my car was also supposed to have EAP in an OTA update in 12/16. I believed that, too.

There was no X when my kids were little, when it did get released, my wife and I could not get over the weird body style, we sooo wanted to like it, but went and looked at it and couldn't get over the identity crisis design - it was like a cross of a very small minivan an a DeLoran with too many compromises, so we just bought my wife an S instead. Even our kids downvoted the body style, but loved the doors. We added tow hitches to our S's for bike racks and small trailer stuff for trips to Costco etc...
We wanted more of a Land Cruiser/GL/Range Rover and the X just didn't measure up to what we wanted, we are hopeful that the truck will better fit our McMansion lifestyle out here in the slumburbs of Fairfax County. I need to haul firewood, ATV's, and camp and offroad, none of which I would have done with the X.

I am confused is Tesla not providing you a loaner? The Chicago SC must not be like the Tysons SC.. I pretty much have the option of a Tesla they few times I have been in for service since 2012. I even took a brand new Model S loaner (still in the white shrink wrap - I watched the staff pull the protective wrap off then hand me the keys) on one service visit years back, then I proceeded on a tri-state trip out of town for a week without any challenges with the Tysons SC. But the service staff knows me, and I know their managers, as I have watched them move up the ranks as Tesla grows, from 2012 to now has seen huge changes at Tesla, I remember when we didnt have an service center in our state and I had to drive to another state to get my initial car, now there are 3 service centers within 90 minutes of my house. Massive growth due to the superior performance of their product over all legacy players, then add in the supercharging network and it will be tough road for others to follow in. I know they are doing well, they have hidden overflow lot near REI in Tysons that sells all the cars every week, I drive by and it's empty by Sunday then they fill it up over the week, the empty again by Sunday, it really is unbelievable how many cars they deliver at Tysons - one rep told me they deliver ten cars per hour..... freaking crazy...when I got my first S, they didn't deliver that many in a week.

 

[neroden]

Unless Tesla comes to the soccer field and fixes it right there, or even OTA, which is increasingly more practical for pretty much anything that doesn’t require a lift - if Tesla can get their act together and deliver.

Sure, but right now Tesla can't even answer their phones, so "if Tesla can get their act together and deliver" is very very much in question.

If I get a Bolt, the service shop will answer their phone.

 

[Big Toys]

There was no X when my kids were little, when it did get released, my wife and I could not get over the weird body style, we sooo wanted to like it, but went and looked at it and couldn't get over the identity crisis design - it was like a cross of a very small minivan an a DeLoran with too many compromises, so we just bought my wife an S instead. Even our kids downvoted the body style, but loved the doors. We added tow hitches to our S's for bike racks and small trailer stuff for trips to Costco etc...
We wanted more of a Land Cruiser/GL/Range Rover and the X just didn't measure up to what we wanted, we are hopeful that the truck will better fit our McMansion lifestyle out here in the slumburbs of Fairfax County. I need to haul firewood, ATV's, and camp and offroad, none of which I would have done with the X.

I am confused is Tesla not providing you a loaner? The Chicago SC must not be like the Tysons SC.. I pretty much have the option of a Tesla they few times I have been in for service since 2012. I even took a brand new Model S loaner (still in the white shrink wrap - I watched the staff pull the protective wrap off then hand me the keys) on one service visit years back, then I proceeded on a tri-state trip out of town for a week without any challenges with the Tysons SC. But the service staff knows me, and I know their managers, as I have watched them move up the ranks as Tesla grows, from 2012 to now has seen huge changes at Tesla, I remember when we didnt have an service center in our state and I had to drive to another state to get my initial car, now there are 3 service centers within 90 minutes of my house. Massive growth due to the superior performance of their product over all legacy players, then add in the supercharging network and it will be tough road for others to follow in. I know they are doing well, they have hidden overflow lot near REI in Tysons that sells all the cars every week, I drive by and it's empty by Sunday then they fill it up over the week, the empty again by Sunday, it really is unbelievable how many cars they deliver at Tysons - one rep told me they deliver ten cars per hour..... freaking crazy...when I got my first S, they didn't deliver that many in a week.

Musk clear states he wants a $35K car. The target demo is either young new professionals who would have bought 3 Series BMW, and slightly older professional families with kids. There is no way in hell a working mom is gonna stay on the phone for 3 hours trying to get someone on the phone, and doesn't get a loaner car to deliver the kids to violin, soccer and daycare. Uber, seriously? Ain't happenin'. You live near several SCs, that's great. My nearest is 1 hour away (it sucks) and the better one is 2 hours away. Need a Saturday to bring your car in? Forget it. An app to schedule an "oil change" is great, but not when you need to speak to a human. You wouldn't tolerate this EVER from Amazon. Bezos did it right and no one leaves Amazon. Musk is doing it exactly wrong, and people are looking for options.

 

[Rockster]

Apple survived because the gov't essentially FORCED Microsoft to allow them to survive. Our younger fanboys here were not around at the time. It won't be this way with Tesla.

Your facts are incorrect. The 2009 $150M Microsoft deal was not forced by the government. It was entirely voluntary between Apple and Microsoft, initiated by Steve Jobs.Your confusion may stem from the fact that this deal was happening about the same time that Microsoft was dealing with the IE/Netscape anti-trust investigation, but the investment in Apple was not part of that. From a Wired article on the subject:

"In a remarkable feat of negotiating legerdemain, Apple co-founder Steve Jobs got needed cash — in return for non-voting shares — and an assurance that Microsoft would support Office for the Mac for five years. Apple agreed to drop a long-running lawsuit in which they alleged Microsoft copied the look and feel of the Mac OS for Windows and to make Internet Explorer the default browser on its computers — but not the only choice.

"Microsoft got to look like a noble competitor, for a change, for what amounted to a rounding error on their annual revenues. Timing mattered: The company was in the midst of an image-tarnishing antitrust fight over its heavy-handed promotion of IE during the height of the browser wars with Netscape."​

Far more important than the $150M, though, was that the deal gave Jobs the credibility to be ushered back into Apple as interim CEO where he could reverse many of Scully's horrible decisions. Quoting the book "West of Eden,":

"...the deal gave Jobs the running room to make Apple a 21st century powerhouse, which, after 18 months of losses, was hardly a forgone conclusion. On the strength of the deal Jobs — still a mere adviser to the Apple board — got himself hired as "interim CEO." Fired in 1985, Jobs would return at Top Dog. He would receive no pay, and he could quit at any time.

"The message was clear," Frank Rose wrote in a new introduction to his 1989 history of Apple, West of Eden. "Apple needed him more than he needed Apple."

And Jobs set out to prove it, with a rapid dismantling of virtually everything predecessor John Sculley had done. As Rose recounts:

Over the next few months, more changes followed — each of them a repudiation of one Sculley initiative or another. The number of product lines was winnowed from 15 to four. The retail channel was streamlined: Instead of selling through competing chains in a misguided drive for "shelf space," sales were unified through an exclusive national dealer.

Marketing was focused around a single message — the "Think Different" campaign from Chiat/Day, the newly rehired ad agency behind the unforgettable "1984” TV spot that had launched the Mac. The licensing deals that enabled other manufacturers to undercut Apple with Mac clones were terminated. Operating expenses were cut nearly in half. Within months, Apple was back in the black."​

The real reason for Apple's success was the return of Steve Jobs, which was definitely catalyzed by the $150M deal. That same $150M, given to an Apple still run by Scully, wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

So, it's not about the money as much as it is about having an effective CEO who can see a clear path to success. And there the analogy with Tesla is clear.

 

[Skipdd]

Your facts are incorrect. The 2009 $150M Microsoft deal was not forced by the government. It was entirely voluntary between Apple and Microsoft, initiated by Steve Jobs.Your confusion may stem from the fact that this deal was happening about the same time that Microsoft was dealing with the IE/Netscape anti-trust investigation, but the investment in Apple was not part of that. From a Wired article on the subject:

"In a remarkable feat of negotiating legerdemain, Apple co-founder Steve Jobs got needed cash — in return for non-voting shares — and an assurance that Microsoft would support Office for the Mac for five years. Apple agreed to drop a long-running lawsuit in which they alleged Microsoft copied the look and feel of the Mac OS for Windows and to make Internet Explorer the default browser on its computers — but not the only choice.

"Microsoft got to look like a noble competitor, for a change, for what amounted to a rounding error on their annual revenues. Timing mattered: The company was in the midst of an image-tarnishing antitrust fight over its heavy-handed promotion of IE during the height of the browser wars with Netscape."​

Far more important than the $150M, though, was that the deal gave Jobs the credibility to be ushered back into Apple as interim CEO where he could reverse many of Scully's horrible decisions. Quoting the book "West of Eden,":

"...the deal gave Jobs the running room to make Apple a 21st century powerhouse, which, after 18 months of losses, was hardly a forgone conclusion. On the strength of the deal Jobs — still a mere adviser to the Apple board — got himself hired as "interim CEO." Fired in 1985, Jobs would return at Top Dog. He would receive no pay, and he could quit at any time.

"The message was clear," Frank Rose wrote in a new introduction to his 1989 history of Apple, West of Eden. "Apple needed him more than he needed Apple."

And Jobs set out to prove it, with a rapid dismantling of virtually everything predecessor John Sculley had done. As Rose recounts:

Over the next few months, more changes followed — each of them a repudiation of one Sculley initiative or another. The number of product lines was winnowed from 15 to four. The retail channel was streamlined: Instead of selling through competing chains in a misguided drive for "shelf space," sales were unified through an exclusive national dealer.

Marketing was focused around a single message — the "Think Different" campaign from Chiat/Day, the newly rehired ad agency behind the unforgettable "1984” TV spot that had launched the Mac. The licensing deals that enabled other manufacturers to undercut Apple with Mac clones were terminated. Operating expenses were cut nearly in half. Within months, Apple was back in the black."​

The real reason for Apple's success was the return of Steve Jobs, which was definitely catalyzed by the $150M deal. That same $150M, given to an Apple still run by Scully, wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

So, it's not about the money as much as it is about having an effective CEO who can see a clear path to success. And there the analogy with Tesla is clear.

And who/where is the Tim Cook that Steve Jobs recruited to Apple, within Tesla?

 

[sakimano]

I've had an intermittent warning about the front motor not working. Called and left VM with tesla 3 times, chat never works, no VM response.

I live 200 kms from the nearest service centre. Do I just book an appointment and show up? How do i know if they're keeping the car? How do I know if I'm worthy of a loaner?

The company is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE at being a car company. Like the little things, they suck at them. Otherwise pretty cool experience but they're stretched SO thin trying to be margin conscious and you end up with not enough people doing too much work and not being happy. Bad formula.

 

[Big Toys]

Your facts are incorrect. The 2009 $150M Microsoft deal was not forced by the government. It was entirely voluntary between Apple and Microsoft, initiated by Steve Jobs.Your confusion may stem from the fact that this deal was happening about the same time that Microsoft was dealing with the IE/Netscape anti-trust investigation, but the investment in Apple was not part of that. From a Wired article on the subject:

"In a remarkable feat of negotiating legerdemain, Apple co-founder Steve Jobs got needed cash — in return for non-voting shares — and an assurance that Microsoft would support Office for the Mac for five years. Apple agreed to drop a long-running lawsuit in which they alleged Microsoft copied the look and feel of the Mac OS for Windows and to make Internet Explorer the default browser on its computers — but not the only choice.

"Microsoft got to look like a noble competitor, for a change, for what amounted to a rounding error on their annual revenues. Timing mattered: The company was in the midst of an image-tarnishing antitrust fight over its heavy-handed promotion of IE during the height of the browser wars with Netscape."​

Far more important than the $150M, though, was that the deal gave Jobs the credibility to be ushered back into Apple as interim CEO where he could reverse many of Scully's horrible decisions. Quoting the book "West of Eden,":

"...the deal gave Jobs the running room to make Apple a 21st century powerhouse, which, after 18 months of losses, was hardly a forgone conclusion. On the strength of the deal Jobs — still a mere adviser to the Apple board — got himself hired as "interim CEO." Fired in 1985, Jobs would return at Top Dog. He would receive no pay, and he could quit at any time.

"The message was clear," Frank Rose wrote in a new introduction to his 1989 history of Apple, West of Eden. "Apple needed him more than he needed Apple."

And Jobs set out to prove it, with a rapid dismantling of virtually everything predecessor John Sculley had done. As Rose recounts:

Over the next few months, more changes followed — each of them a repudiation of one Sculley initiative or another. The number of product lines was winnowed from 15 to four. The retail channel was streamlined: Instead of selling through competing chains in a misguided drive for "shelf space," sales were unified through an exclusive national dealer.

Marketing was focused around a single message — the "Think Different" campaign from Chiat/Day, the newly rehired ad agency behind the unforgettable "1984” TV spot that had launched the Mac. The licensing deals that enabled other manufacturers to undercut Apple with Mac clones were terminated. Operating expenses were cut nearly in half. Within months, Apple was back in the black."​

The real reason for Apple's success was the return of Steve Jobs, which was definitely catalyzed by the $150M deal. That same $150M, given to an Apple still run by Scully, wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

So, it's not about the money as much as it is about having an effective CEO who can see a clear path to success. And there the analogy with Tesla is clear.

Ah, but you forget that had Apple gone out of business, Microsoft would be the only major OS player in town, hence a monopoly. So it was in Gates' best interest to keep Apple afloat rather than deal with the gov't. It had little to do with Jobs (Gates' frenemy) and everything to do with Gates. The fawning Wired author failed to appreciate that as he typed on the Mac that was about to be orphaned.

 

[Speedr117]

Yeah, now imagine the $35K demographic soccer mom of 3, 2 hours from a SC, that needs her car fixed within the week, but is offered an Uber back home. Forget it, ain't gonna happen. She's going to Toyota, Honda, VW.

I'm confused how going with a Toyota, Honda, or VW is going to help. It's not like THEY are giving out loaners! The fact the Tesla comes to you for the vast majority of repairs is WAY more important!

 

[RDoc]

I'm confused how going with a Toyota, Honda, or VW is going to help. It's not like THEY are giving out loaners! The fact the Tesla comes to you for the vast majority of repairs is WAY more important!

Maybe they come to you for the vast majority of repairs, but that's certainly not what most people see. Personally, I've never had Ranger service even when I asked for it.

 

[Big Toys]

I'm confused how going with a Toyota, Honda, or VW is going to help. It's not like THEY are giving out loaners! The fact the Tesla comes to you for the vast majority of repairs is WAY more important!

Because these companies have a presence or nearby in nearly every community. You call, you talk to someone, make appt, you drop it off, have your husband pick you up, you pick it up when it's ready. Mom's aren't driving 1-2 hours to the SC during the week (because there are no weekend appts) with no way to get back. IOW, Tesla's EV is not a practical option when you need in-person service. It's frankly more convenient to buy the minivan/SUV and change the oil every 5K.

 

[Mattzilla]

Maybe they come to you for the vast majority of repairs, but that's certainly not what most people see. Personally, I've never had Ranger service even when I asked for it.

I've had the same experience. I've specifically requested the mobile ranger service multiple times and never received it. Instead I have to take my car into a hard to get to traffic/congestion nightmare that is over an hour away and pray there is a loaner or it can be repaired while I'm there so I can get back to work.