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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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IMO it isn't a tax event, but in case it is, wouldn't you offset the *new* shares with the 80% loss of the *old* ones?

That's my logic as well but tax authorities here claim you only have a dividend gain that's taxable but nothing to offset it against. Sounds crazy but if they consider it a dividend given and not a stock split all you can do is to sue them.

That would take many years is very costly and the outcome is uncertain.

Unless I don't have an official statement it is all hearsay though and we should hope for the best. One reason why I am alerted is I had a similar case with company options many years ago where they had exactly the same argumentation and taxed me on no gains.

Again, let see how that plays out.
 
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Is he conceding defeat? Thanks for the free advertising!
 
That's my logic as well but tax authorities here claim you only have a dividend gain that's taxable but nothing to offset it against. Sounds crazy but if they consider it a dividend given and not a stock split all you can do is to sue them.

That would take many years is very costly and the outcome is uncertain.

Unless I don't have an official statement it is all hearsay though and we should hope for the best. One reason why I am alerted is I had a similar case with company options many years ago where they had exactly the same argumentation and taxed me on no gains.

Again, let see how that plays out.

If so, within your yearly tax declaration you will be refunded IMO...
 
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Watched a couple talking heads jabbering about the Stock split.
All said the same basically the same thing....It does not change anything....what's the big deal?

Here is the big deal IMHO.

Elon Musk cares about people and the small investor. I believe that was a big factor in the whole going private at 420 episode.
By splitting the stock more individual investors can and will buy shares. As SMR would say "this matters"

My son who is just starting out will be able to buy shares..so will my daughter...and so will millions more individual's.
The door is opened to many more people.

Enough of catering to the thief's on wall street. EM hates those leeches and so do I.

I LOVE this Split as it is a big present for the man on the street.
 
Watched a couple talking heads jabbering about the Stock split.
All said the same basically the same thing....It does not change anything....what's the big deal?

Here is the big deal IMHO.

Elon Musk cares about people and the small investor. I believe that was a big factor in the whole going private at 420 episode.
By splitting the stock more individual investors can and will buy shares. As SMR would say "this matters"

My son who is just starting out will be able to buy shares..so will my daughter...and so will millions more individual's.
The door is opened to many more people.

Enough of catering to the thief's on wall street. EM hates those leeches and so do I.

I LOVE this Split as it is a big present for the man on the street.

IMO the split is good for the following reasons:-
  • It is likely to maximize any positive bump from Battery Day in percentage terms.
  • It makes it more like the S&P committee will not require a secondary or can live with a smaller secondary (more liquidity)
  • I'm sure it makes the employee share options program easier to manage.
  • It allows new small time retail investors into the party.
I'm happy to do a 5:1 split at 1,500 every time, each $420 will be better than the last.

Assuming no bats or ants, an Island can be split into 1 foot square chunks.. We call all party on our 1-foot square... so technically we are not on that Island.
 
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Watched a couple talking heads jabbering about the Stock split.
All said the same basically the same thing....It does not change anything....what's the big deal?

Here is the big deal IMHO.

Elon Musk cares about people and the small investor. I believe that was a big factor in the whole going private at 420 episode.
By splitting the stock more individual investors can and will buy shares. As SMR would say "this matters"

My son who is just starting out will be able to buy shares..so will my daughter...and so will millions more individual's.
The door is opened to many more people.

Enough of catering to the thief's on wall street. EM hates those leeches and so do I.

I LOVE this Split as it is a big present for the man on the street.

I agree with you. This YouTube is pretty good at explaining the split and the future of Tesla vs. other companies.

 
IMO the split is good for the following reasons:-
  • It is likely to maximize any positive bump from Battery Day in percentage terms.
  • It makes it more like the S&P committee will not require a secondary or can live with a smaller secondary (more liquidity)
  • I'm sure it makes the employee share options program easier to manage.
  • It allows new small time retail investors into the party.
I'm happy to do a 5:1 split at 1,500 every time, each $420 will be better than the last.

Assuming no bats or ants, an Island can be split into 1 foot square chunks.. We call all party on our 1-foot square... so technically we are not on that Island.

It also makes it 5 times more expensive for High Frequency Traders. Which will hopefully make some of the manipulations less profitable and drive them to find other stocks to manipulate instead. (Weird that they still pay per share fees, while retail traders no longer do.)
 
Watched a couple talking heads jabbering about the Stock split.
All said the same basically the same thing....It does not change anything....what's the big deal?

Here is the big deal IMHO.

Elon Musk cares about people and the small investor. I believe that was a big factor in the whole going private at 420 episode.
By splitting the stock more individual investors can and will buy shares. As SMR would say "this matters"

My son who is just starting out will be able to buy shares..so will my daughter...and so will millions more individual's.
The door is opened to many more people.

Enough of catering to the thief's on wall street. EM hates those leeches and so do I.

I LOVE this Split as it is a big present for the man on the street.

Here’s the bigger deal that hardly anyone is talking about:

Binky has 100 shares today at $1554.76 for a total non-diversified investment account value of $155,476.00.

For every $1 that the SP increases until stock split day, Binky’s NDIA will increase $100 in value.

Let’s say on stock split day the SP closes at $2000 even. Binky’s storyteller is crazy optimistic. On the close of August 28 Binky’s 100 shares in his NDIA will have a value of $200,000. The SP rose $445.24 and Binky gained $44,524.00.

On August 31 the magic pixie dust is sprinkled by his fairy godmother and suddenly Binky’s 100 shares turn into 500 shares. They are worth $200,000 and the SP is reset to $400 from $2000.

People all arguing nothing has changed. Ha!

Just before market open on August 31 the S&P announces TSLA inclusion (for storytelling purposes only, we all bloody well know it ain’t happening). Market opens and the SP skyrockets by the same $445.24 to a total SP this time of $845.24.

And here’s the magic, Binky’s NDIA doesn’t increase by $100 per $1 rise but by $500 per $1 rise. So that $44,524 before the split, becomes $222,620 after the split because Binky has 500 shares now, not 100.

No, the SP isn’t going to rise and fall by the same dollar average as it does now. This is where you need to consider SP rise and fall as a percentage. Someone is going to argue that the SP will just continue to move by the same percentages after as before so it’s all a wash, but this is where the psychology of a lower SP comes in for new and current investors. It could be argued that SP appreciation will be faster from $400 to $1000 than $2000 to $2600 for a variety of reasons. Or let’s do it as an equal percentage; $400 to $800 vs $2000 to $4000.
 
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Here’s the bigger deal that hardly anyone is talking about:

Binky has 100 shares today at $1554.76 for a total non-diversified investment account value of $155,476.00.

For every $1 that the SP increases until stock split day, Binky’s NDIA will increase $100 in value.

Let’s say on stock split day the SP closes at $2000 even. Binky’s storyteller is crazy optimistic. On the close of August 28 Binky’s 100 shares in his NDIA will have a value of $200,000. The SP rose $445.24 and Binky gained $44,524.00.

On August 31 the magic pixie dust is sprinkled by his fairy godmother and suddenly Binky’s 100 shares turn into 500 shares. They are worth $200,000 and the SP is reset to $400 from $2000.

People all arguing nothing has changed. Ha!

Just before market open on August 31 the S&P announces TSLA inclusion (for storytelling purposes only, we all bloody well know it ain’t happening). Market opens and the SP skyrockets by the same $445.24 to a total SP this time of $845.24.

And here’s the magic, Binky’s NDIA doesn’t increase by $100 per $1 rise but by $500 per $1 rise. So that $44,524 before the split, becomes $222,620 after the split because Binky has 500 shares now, not 100.

No, the SP isn’t going to rise and fall by the same dollar average as it does now. This is where you need to consider SP rise and fall as a percentage. Someone is going to argue that the SP will just continue to move by the same percentages after as before so it’s all a wash, but this is where the psychology of a lower SP comes in for new and current investors. It could be argued that SP appreciation will be faster from $400 to $1000 than $2000 to $2600 for a variety of reasons.

Damn it cat...no Math!
 
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Here’s the bigger deal that hardly anyone is talking about:

Binky has 100 shares today at $1554.76 for a total non-diversified investment account value of $155,476.00.

For every $1 that the SP increases until stock split day, Binky’s NDIA will increase $100 in value.

Let’s say on stock split day the SP closes at $2000 even. Binky’s storyteller is crazy optimistic. On the close of August 28 Binky’s 100 shares in his NDIA will have a value of $200,000. The SP rose $445.24 and Binky gained $44,524.00.

On August 31 the magic pixie dust is sprinkled by his fairy godmother and suddenly Binky’s 100 shares turn into 500 shares. They are worth $200,000 and the SP is reset to $400 from $2000.

People all arguing nothing has changed. Ha!

Just before market open on August 31 the S&P announces TSLA inclusion (for storytelling purposes only, we all bloody well know it ain’t happening). Market opens and the SP skyrockets by the same $445.24 to a total SP this time of $845.24.

And here’s the magic, Binky’s NDIA doesn’t increase by $100 per $1 rise but by $500 per $1 rise. So that $44,524 before the split, becomes $222,620 after the split because Binky has 500 shares now, not 100.

No, the SP isn’t going to rise and fall by the same dollar average as it does now. This is where you need to consider SP rise and fall as a percentage. Someone is going to argue that the SP will just continue to move by the same percentages after as before so it’s all a wash, but this is where the psychology of a lower SP comes in for new and current investors. It could be argued that SP appreciation will be faster from $400 to $1000 than $2000 to $2600 for a variety of reasons. Or let’s do it as an equal percentage; $400 to $800 vs $2000 to $4000.
Ford is the number one stock held on Robinhood. One has to think it's probably because of the share price because I seriously doubt all these millenials think Ford is the future.

Took me 4 tries to explain to this one girl that share price is meaningless. She just stares at me and said " shouldn't I buy Ford at 8 dollars a share when TSLA is 330 dollars a share?". Face palm.
 
Damn it cat...no Math!

Let me dumb it down for you.

For every $1 rise in SP now, one’s account value increases by the number of shares they own. After the split, every $1 rise in SP has the exact same effect EXCEPT you now have 5xs more shares so your non-diversified investment account value appreciates 5xs faster.
 
Ford is the number one stock held on Robinhood. One has to think it's probably because of the share price because I seriously doubt all these millenials think Ford is the future.

Took me 4 tries to explain to this one girl that share price is meaningless. She just stares at me and said " shouldn't I buy Ford at 8 dollars a share when TSLA is 330 dollars a share?". Face palm.

It’s a trick of the human mind, but it’s going to work in our favor.
 
I didn't see any discussion about this today, do you think it could have caused any of the gains we saw today?

Robinhood and retail interest could've been a small part of it:

robin.jpg


But the vast majority of it is due to delta hedging imo:

DH.jpg


This chart from @generalenthu hasn't even fully updated yet to include the price increase to $1,560, but you can see delta hedging requirements increase by a whopping 9M shares just from $1,374 to $1,499.

In reality, the number market makers had to buy will have been lower, because they don't need to delta hedge 100% of this number, but regardless the delta hedging requirements for market makers went up enormously today. So much in fact, that I wouldn't be surprised if market makers weren't able to buy enough shares today to be delta neutral, considering volume of only ~20M shares.
 
Oui. Effectivement.

That would be my conclusion.

I would have been less worried about holdings in RRSPs (there’s a relief provision from the withholding in that scenario) or in an unregistered account (while not ideal, at least you get a Foreign Tax Credit).

I’ve always found it absurd that TFSAs have this blind spot when it comes to dividends from foreign issuers (it’s idiotic that if TSLA was a Canadian issuer, we wouldn’t have this issue at all), but it’s a great example of tax rules just not being modernized for the real world.

Thanks / Merci.

Appreciate your expertise here.

On an unregistered account would you say we would need to invoke the Foreign Dividend Tax credit - for any shares sold after the split - or would it just be done as a standard capital gain as would have been the case pre-split ? (but just now at the newly adjusted 5X greater shares @ 1/5th the price )
 
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It’s a trick of the human mind, but it’s going to work in our favor.
No it's literally people not understanding stocks. This is also why you have so many people sell low and buy high, or taking profit on a 10% gain while missing out on a 200% rise. Fundamentally too many people throw money into stock hoping it'll go up and then cash out. They treat it like a casino but believe it's "not gambling" because they did their due diligence by reading something someone said in a blog post somewhere.