Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[JRP3]

Got to stop the knee-jerk conspiracy theories.

Only in the sense that a conspiracy implies a conscious, coordinated effort. I think what we are seeing is ignorance which is exploited at every opportunity. Label that as you will, but it is by no means benign.

 

[JusRelax]

Just a note for this quarter's results:

I've been using ev-cpo to browse used teslas for the past 4-5 months. I've seen the stock of used teslas go from very plentiful to practically nil. I was seeing 4-yr warranty CPO model S selling for as low as $35k back in march/april. The lowest is now $45k. I saw used AP 2.0 hw vehicles selling for as low as $47k. The lowest is now $64k (!!).

Is it normal for Tesla to not restock their used tesla inventory until after the quarter ends so that they can focus on deliveries of new ones??

 

[neroden]

Just a note for this quarter's results:

I've been using ev-cpo to browse used teslas for the past 4-5 months. I've seen the stock of used teslas go from very plentiful to practically nil. I was seeing 4-yr warranty CPO model S selling for as low as $35k back in march/april. The lowest is now $45k. I saw used AP 2.0 hw vehicles selling for as low as $47k. The lowest is now $64k (!!).

Is it normal for Tesla to not restock their used tesla inventory until after the quarter ends so that they can focus on deliveries of new ones??

Tesla used inventory is a bit weird, but my current belief is that they are doing their best to avoid acquiring used inventory. They only do it when someone insists on a trade-in, IMO.

 

[neroden]

Only in the sense that a conspiracy implies a conscious, coordinated effort. I think what we are seeing is ignorance which is exploited at every opportunity. Label that as you will, but it is by no means benign.

While I think in general this is ignorance being exploited at every opportunity, there is conscious intent when an article explicitly excludes the common, normal driving experience in order to pretend that driving electric cars is difficult. You can't do that by accident.

 

[dc_h]

Sorry if I’ve missed this, but big tslaq flaming storm about certificate of conformity for SR+ and Raven in Europe. No SR+ in Norway yet and story of Switzerland SR’s being cancelled.
I’m sure they’re lurking here, so sorry to fan the flames, but does anyone know the scope of the problem? Seems odd that an update to an existing car would be so hard to get approved.

 

[Krugerrand]

Update:

What follows is my personal opinion only.

So I had a great call with the NYT reporter. We spoke on the phone for nearly two hours (really). Covered a lot of ground, got a lot of context, learned a lot -- I suspect both of us; l know I learned a lot. Ivan is a good guy, he's not a bad guy. Suffice to say, he's heard a ton from Tesla owners since the article came out.

No time to write up a longer summary now -- it's midafternoon, I'm starving, and haven't had lunch yet -- but suffice to say there is no great NYT conspiracy to screw Tesla. I just don't see it. There is no Broder, the secret puppeteer, controlling everything from behind the curtain. Hell, these reporters don't even know nor have ever communicated with Broder. Forget Broder. We really as a community have to put that theory to rest for good. Broder has become to Tesla what Soros is for the GOP: the bogeyman. Same goes for Patrick Soon-Shiong, owner of LA Times: he is not dictating what Russ Mitchell or other LA Times reporters should write. These theories are not going to move things forward constructively. Time to retire them.

A lot gets cut from news stories and a lot got cut from this one. He did the EVgo/Chevy Bolt drive from LA->Vegas sometime in April, two months ago. He did not pick EVGo, they reached out to him. They offered the car; he did not pick the car. He rode with EVGo reps in the car, I suppose he thought it was worth a try, he might learn something about the charging infrastructure available to the public. There is so much context that gets lost by what winds up in the few words that survive to print. He did all sorts of research for this story which was ostensibly about charging and charging networks--not about the cars. He covers alternative energy and has an interest in EV charging networks and in battery storage. There was a ton more about Tesla in the article originally that didn't make it into the final piece (Tesla gave him a Model 3 to drive for a weekend--he thought it was a great car, no complaints, though he did have some interesting charging experiences, which is the thing he was mainly interested in). But still, I learned that apparently Tesla's PR team is generally happy with the resulting story, and is not bent out of shape the way many in the Tesla community have been since this story came out. Something to think about.

There is a difference between the individual journalist and the publication or media outlet that puts out the story. We too often forget that. There are also editors, copy editors, headline editors, web producers, and all sorts of other team members who are editing, guiding, cutting, pasting, rearranging, A/B testing of headlines (once again, I learned that the reporter had no say or input or anything as to what the headline of the story was: that's done in NYC, and this reporter is LA based), and packaging the final product that readers see in print or online.

For now I'll just say that I suspect a lot of the dissatisfaction many of us feel in terms of how the EV phenomenon is being depicted and covered in major media actually stems from how the stories are packaged by the publication, not from the reporters themselves. But we tend to direct our unhappiness solely onto the name of the reporter attached to the article. On social media, the reporter gets the brunt of the grief, the attacks, the ad-hominems. If we want to move media coverage of EVs forward we have to figure out a way to constructively engage at the editorial level; reporters in general are not the enemy. (Yes, yes, there are writers out there who genuinely don't like Tesla, and have a bias, I will stipulate. Ivan isn't one of 'em.) Tweeting flames to NYT editors isn't the answer, unfortunately; I suspect they a) just tune that stuff out and b), worse, it all just fuels a view--deserved or undeserved--that Tesla owners are elitist and reactionary. (Perhaps a bunch of brief, respectful, thoughtful letters to the editor would be a better approach at engaging with higher-ups in the press. If only the New York Times still had an ombudsman/public editor.)

I think the EV crowd sometimes views news articles like this latest NYT piece as massive tsunami waves, wreaking destruction on the public's understanding of EVs. The more I discuss the articles with journalists at these media outlets, the more I start realizing that each article is indeed a wave, but just one ordinary wave, and it is the lapping of many waves over years that will ultimately cause the shape of a continent to change.

One thing that would really help is for the people in the press to begin owning EVs, so they have personal hands-on day-in/day-out experience with them. But realistically the industry isn't quite there yet. Early adopter Tesla owners, of which I am one, often easily forget that. Teslas are still pretty exotic/expensive vehicles, and EVs, be they Tesla or made elsewhere, are still out of reach economically and practically by many people for all sorts of reasons we often don't think about. So sure, there are Tesla superchargers all over, but to the ordinary public who doesn't own a Tesla, they mean nothing. I suspect this reporter was more interested in the state of charging for everything non-Tesla. Furthermore, I suspect EVs in general, and definitely Teslas, are still not even on the purchase horizon of most people who work at news-gathering organizations. As a consequence I suspect editors are cutting stuff from stories that might have helped the overall context, stuff existing Tesla owners would have seen as no-brainers and crucial for increasing the public's understanding. I really think this is where the disconnect is. Sadly it's not going to get fixed overnight, or even in a year. But I am hopeful it is going to get better over time as EVs become more mainstream.

So, I suggest we all take a deep breath and work to find constructive ways outside of swift social media reactions to get better media coverage of the EV revolution. Ideally everyone ought to pitch in: owners, EV-makers, editors, and reporters. I suggested to this reporter that we ought to have a conference and hash these issues out constructively. Maybe that would move the needle forward a little bit. It's a dream, anyway.

I very much appreciate this information. It makes me angry.

I don’t like the excuses you’re making for the people hacking the crap out of the article.

I don’t like the excuses you make for a reporter, who puts in the kind of work and effort that Ivan supposedly did, yet allows others to destroy his work. And is apparently okay with that.

I don’t like that you put all the responsibility on *us* to make this ‘right’ when it’s more clear than ever now that all of us are being manipulated and brainwashed by a certain group of people and that people like Ivan, who are supposed to have a ‘voice’ and know many people will read the work their name is attached to, allow it to happen and again are clearly okay with it by taking a regular paycheck. Where’s his responsibility in all this?

I’ve written articles for publications in the past and I’ve had some of them hacked to crap and proceeded to them to go take a flying you-know-what. Anyone who writes for a publication knows the parameters (topic, word count, perspective etc...) that the publication is looking for. If you follow those guidelines (and you can actually write decent) then editing is (should be) kept to a minimum, unless something else is going on.

I’ve also always had a chance to read the edited version before it went to print. I concede that last might not apply to news/media print, which makes me ask the question; Why the heck not!?

Don’t tell me Mr. Ivan doesn’t know parameters for his articles and how to get his articles not hacked to bits, otherwise I’ve got to conclude he doesn’t give a rat’s behind what his name is attached to. And that’s a problem. And it’s a problem that editors with an agenda have the power to change an article that was supposedly well researched and neutral into a biased anti-EV article at the expense of a coworker’s professional reputation.

 

[HG Wells]

Tesla increases use of Aluminum for batteries from 6.4 (2018) to 10 million kg

Tesla secures tariff exemption on aluminum for battery cell, document shows massive ramp up - Electrek

 

[Artful Dodger]

Yeeowch. The editors interfered with a solid, neutral, well-reported article to insert two paragaphs of disparaging personal opinions of the editors (like " Mr. Sanders is suddenly promising not just a few stars here and there, but the moon and a good part of the sun," -- complete BS).

I didn't know about this one. That's really bad behavior by NYT editors. Of course they're doing it again...

...and they eliminated the public editor position.

NYT is not a respectable publication any more. I'll take the Guardian any day; when they publish a piece which is negative about EVs, at least it's a reporter saying what they think (and admitting it), not an editor hacking their piece up to say the opposite of what it originally said.

Yeah, no doubt. That's the part at the bottom of every Bloomberg article on Tesla:

"-- with assistance from Dana Hull"​

 

[Artful Dodger]

Sorry if I’ve missed this, but big tslaq flaming storm about certificate of conformity for SR+ and Raven in Europe. No SR+ in Norway yet and story of Switzerland SR’s being cancelled.
I’m sure they’re lurking here, so sorry to fan the flames, but does anyone know the scope of the problem? Seems odd that an update to an existing car would be so hard to get approved.

Lol, homologation-gate Part Deux. These toolz neva quitz. SSDD.

Cheers!

 

[Silentk]

Our toothbrush loving friend is quoting Q2 Factset estimates at 89.3k

 

[Krugerrand]

Oh geez. This is an overreaction. There is no conspiracy. I think it’s unproductive to frame these issues that way.

Someone/s is/are responsible for the article hack job. From your very own explanation the article in print is nothing like the original.

 

[jerry33]

The Plain Old Telephone System was more reliable and if Tesla wanted reliability...

That sure wasn't my experience. A one year outage. No more POTS for me.

 

[Singuy]

Our toothbrush loving friend is quoting Q2 Factset estimates at 89.3kView attachment 422878

To everyone complaining that they haven't made money since 2015 holding Tesla, you can sleep a little better at night knowing that this guy haven't since Tesla went IPO.

 

[Artful Dodger]

WEEKKNIGHT OFF-TOPIC:

SpaceX‏ @SpaceX 9 hours ago

"Falcon Heavy and STP-2 are vertical on Launch Complex 39A. Tonight’s four-hour launch window opens at 11:30 p.m. EDT, or 3:30 UTC on June 25"
http://spacex.com/webcast
​

ooh mau mau
shaka
ooh mau mau

​

 

[DragonWatch]

Good afternoon

We are running into the delivery 2Q19 results and our new mint condition MX is/was counted on Friday 21Jun19 The exchange in and of itself was mellow dramatic. Sandy and I moved our junk from Xena I to Xena II and the Tesla delivery guy said just sign here & I assume you do not require a walk thru No Tesla cup, no special boxed key fobs. We did get a new towing mount, and I did move our plastic/rubber floor-mats into the newer carriage. The old towing mount went with the old Xena only because I got a new one

It was the drive south from Olympia, Washington to Portland, Oregon that as a fanboy and avid stock holder that was thrilling. First, early in the drive we stopped at Left Bank for super French pastries, and The Filling Station Espresso for my "why bother Latte`" ~ you know, decaf americano with hemp milk. Fifteen minutes down the I-5 heading south; opposing traffic heading north was a white MX hauling a camping trailer! We counted close to twenty Tesla's running wild heading north, and two fully loaded semi's with seven and eight loads of ready to run wild Tesla's. If this was Friday the 13th, I might have been worried, but it was the 21st of June!

Now, while delivery/transference of the old to new was mellow dramatic; the hand-off of three Model 3s while we were waiting and signing our paperwork took place in the background. That is important to the movers and shakers (not religion ~ shakers).

Budgets were cut by not gifting me another coffee cup (would have had a pair) ~ not plural, umbrella (one for each of us) and cutting out my unlimited supercharging Oh, and no $1,000 off on the deal:-( Still no military discount, active or retired.

I am bullish; yes full of bull too

 

[Singuy]

WEEKKNIGHT OFF-TOPIC:

SpaceX‏ @SpaceX 9 hours ago

"Falcon Heavy and STP-2 are vertical on Launch Complex 39A. Tonight’s four-hour launch window opens at 11:30 p.m. EDT, or 3:30 UTC on June 25"
http://spacex.com/webcast
​

ooh mau mau
shaka
ooh mau mau

​

Can't wait to race back home tonight from work so I can have a nice swim in my back yard with a view of FH making history.

 

[jerry33]

More conspiracy-thinking. Sigh. This is not constructive. Very likely a VW ad showed up there because VW wants to appear there, your cookies made whatever ad network NYT uses think you might be receptive to that ad, and so VW paid whatever ad network NYT uses to appear there. Gotta stop the knee-jerk conspiracy theories.

If there were a mix of positive and negative stories, I'd buy that. But when every story is negative--even if it has to be edited to make it negative, it's very hard to imagine that the editors aren't bought or pressured by someone.

 

[Carl Raymond]

A beef we read fairly often on this thread runs "Tesla comms are terrible. Tesla can't even answer the phone in a timely manner. The other day I was on hold for xx minutes".

Does anyone think that the hold time is long because Tesla are incapable of hiring enough staff to answer phones? I'm fairly sure the hold time is to do with discouraging phone use and encouraging app and email use. They want you to hang up and use the app, send an email, solve it yourself or get the info from the website. Most large organisations do this.

It's far more efficient to deal with client issues once they have the details in writing. It's faster. Allows redirection. Allows prioritisation and sorting issues like with like. Saves data entry. Allows actioners to action items back to back. Basically puts the flow into workflow.

Not saying it's right. Just surprised that people are surprised by the lack of priority given to answering the phone.

 

[tinm]

I very much appreciate this information. It makes me angry.

I don’t like the excuses you’re making for the people hacking the crap out of the article.

I don’t like the excuses you make for a reporter, who puts in the kind of work and effort that Ivan supposedly did, yet allows others to destroy his work. And is apparently okay with that.

I don’t like that you put all the responsibility on *us* to make this ‘right’ when it’s more clear than ever now that all of us are being manipulated and brainwashed by a certain group of people and that people like Ivan, who are supposed to have a ‘voice’ and know many people will read the work their name is attached to, allow it to happen and again are clearly okay with it by taking a regular paycheck. Where’s his responsibility in all this?

I’ve written articles for publications in the past and I’ve had some of them hacked to crap and proceeded to them to go take a flying you-know-what. Anyone who writes for a publication knows the parameters (topic, word count, perspective etc...) that the publication is looking for. If you follow those guidelines (and you can actually write decent) then editing is (should be) kept to a minimum, unless something else is going on.

I’ve also always had a chance to read the edited version before it went to print. I concede that last might not apply to news/media print, which makes me ask the question; Why the heck not!?

Don’t tell me Mr. Ivan doesn’t know parameters for his articles and how to get his articles not hacked to bits, otherwise I’ve got to conclude he doesn’t give a rat’s behind what his name is attached to. And that’s a problem. And it’s a problem that editors with an agenda have the power to change an article that was supposedly well researched and neutral into a biased anti-EV article at the expense of a coworker’s professional reputation.

I hear you. Your response shows why I probably should not have posted my summary, because it only seems to have made matters worse. My biases, my interpretation of the conversation, and my opinions as to what is happening are all that: mine. In a hasty post I bring yet another layer of inaccuracy to the picture.

No way am I putting "all the responsibility on *us* to make this 'right'". Not at all. I put the responsibility on the news organization. It's their story, they reported it, they edited it, including cutting out whatever they cut out, they picked the headline, and they published what they published. They own it. I just don't think solely attacking reporters solves much or moves the ball closer to the goal line. To improve EV coverage I suspect ultimately requires figuring out why the people in editorial/publishing make the decisions they make and then figuring out a way to help them make better decisions about how they cover EVs.

 

[Moon Buggy]

A beef we read fairly often on this thread runs "Tesla comms are terrible. Tesla can't even answer the phone in a timely manner. The other day I was on hold for xx minutes".

Does anyone think that the hold time is long because Tesla are incapable of hiring enough staff to answer phones? I'm fairly sure the hold time is to do with discouraging phone use and encouraging app and email use. They want you to hang up and use the app, send an email, solve it yourself or get the info from the website. Most large organisations do this.

It's far more efficient to deal with client issues once they have the details in writing. It's faster. Allows redirection. Allows prioritisation and sorting issues like with like. Saves data entry. Allows actioners to action items back to back. Basically puts the flow into workflow.

Not saying it's right. Just surprised that people are surprised by the lack of priority given to answering the phone.

In my experience, the response to emails and online chat is even worse. For this reason, I have trouble subscribing to your theory.