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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

Artful Dodger

"Ducimus, lit"
Aug 9, 2018
8,630
106,846
Canada
It is morally distasteful to bet whether some poor guy is going to get hit by a bus.

It is murder to push the fellow in front of the bus.

The short trade on TSLA was for a long time an attempt to kill Tesla the company. This was done in part by attempting to deny it access to capital. The papers also participated by publishing hit pieces to discredit Tesla, Musk, and their cars.

The SEC knowingly turns a blind eye on these attempts to kill companies and, in the case of Musk’s tweets for example, sometimes lends a hand. Hmm, that seems like regulatory capture.

Broadly speaking, the ability of shorts to strangle fledgling companies in the crib stifles innovation in the country and insulates entrenched players from the need to adapt. This saps the competitive strength of the US.

When our government fails in such a way, it is entirely right and correct as well as necessary for its people to exert a rectifying action. Indeed, it is our patriotic duty. Yes, even if we have to make a small sacrifice.

If the predatory shorts who were caught out in the GME trade can be ruined and their wealth transferred to our youth, so much the better.

Perhaps our federal regulators will wake up to the threat posed by the modern short playbook. Perhaps they will make short action more transparent. Perhaps they will restrict or eliminate the ability of market makers to abuse their power to naked short.

One can hope. One can also chip in a few bucks.
Nominated for "Moderators' Choice: Posts of Particular Merit". Thank-you
 

Rarity

Member
Jan 29, 2009
880
3,615
Certain Options Market Makers were abusing their exemption to the prohibition against naked short selling, to the point where quite likely over 50% of the float was perpetually naked short.

That is illegal, and Tesla tripped them up by issing a share dividend instead of a cash dividend. Ask any one of the dozen or so commenters here one this forum why they never received their dividend shares in time for the Open on Mon, Aug 31, 2020 but had to wait 2 days or more to receive their legally owned shares.

It's because Tesla 'rescued' the shortzes and MMs by issuing a $5B share offering on Tue, Sep 2020 which allowed the MMs to cover their naked short position, and provide the dividend shares they owed to their customers.

Do you think this rescue was to the ultimate benefit of us Tesla shareholders? I would say probably yes, but only indirectly in that it allowed an orderly appreciation that was beneficial to Tesla the company.

Tesla provided a roadmap for GameStop the company. I wonder why they haven't used that roadmap so far.
 

2daMoon

Mostly Harmless
Nov 25, 2020
662
4,562
Terra
While this is a correct statement, it misses the elephant in the room. A non-SC route adds more miles than the Interstate-only route adds. A common trip that we take adds 50 miles, but if I drove the route I would really like to take, going from that route to the SCs and back would add an additional 50 miles. Until Tesla puts SCs on state highways (or has enough range to do a day's driving on one charge), that's not likely to change.

FWIW, the route I prefer would be from East of Austin, Tx, through Sweetwater, TX; Roswell, NM; Santa Fe, NM; on up to the Four Corners area. (Cortez, Durango, Pagosa Springs) GoogleMaps to Cortez is under 1000 miles and ~15 hours

The Tesla.com/trips to Cortez, CO is 1100 miles and 21 hours (10 charging stops) and goes through Waco, DFW, Amarillo, Santa Fe, Alberquerque, and Farmington. For me, that extra 6 hours turns it from a drive I've done in 1 day to a minimum 2 day drive. (others, it might change it from a 2 day to a 3 day trip, or more)

That's not a deal breaker by any means, just significantly different than before, for me. In the past I would drive through to conserve vacation time to spend riding MTB at the destination. Once I've retired that will be less of a concern and I could take it at a more leisurely flower-sniffin' pace. :)

I very much appreciate the feedback and it has been helpful for me. The Y could still be in the cards, until the Cybertruck is for sale. :cool:

Meanwhile, counting down the hours for the weekend to end and we can get back to HODLing.
 

SpaceCash

Intergalactic Planetary, Planetary Intergalactic
Jul 5, 2017
1,607
12,143
Earth
You are completely backwards in you understanding of this issue.

This was NEVER about the stock split; it was ALWAYS about declaring a CASH DIVIDEND vs declaring a SHARE DIVIDEND.

A cash divended could easily have been paid by short-selling Market Makers (cash is fungible).

A share dividend could NEVER be paid by short sellers WITHOUT buying real shares on the market to pay with.

This is the fundamental issue you seem to be missing entirely: only TESLA has the sovereign right to issue TSLA shares.

Certain Options Market Makers were abusing their exemption to the prohibition against naked short selling, to the point where quite likely over 50% of the float was perpetually naked short.

That is illegal, and Tesla tripped them up by issuing a share dividend instead of a cash dividend. Ask any one of the many commenters (I have them bookmarked) one this forum why they didn't receive their dividend shares in time for the Open on Mon, Aug 31, 2020 but had to wait 2 days or more to receive their legally owned shares.

It's because Tesla 'rescued' the shortzes and MMs by issuing a $5B share offering on Tue, Sep 2020 which allowed the MMs to cover their naked short position, and provide the dividend shares they owed to their customers.

The fact that this is NOT the subject of a huge class-action lawsuit is a testament to the tilted legal playing field that exists to gather evidence of wrong-doing by market makers and brokerages. Shareholders could have sold for as much as $545/share on Mon, Aug but they did not have access to their legally-owned assets.

The fact the you don't appear to know any of this makes you look even more foolish than the condescending meme you posted in your comment, which I have redacted.

Not a good look, young padawan. :(
I know everything you just mentioned and for the umpteenth time I reiterate that every single stock split functions this way.
I'm ok with being in the minority with my correct take on the issue, happens literally every day.
 

MikeC

Supporting Member
Jul 9, 2012
2,857
5,131
Los Angeles
2D44EFD3-76F4-4F20-9004-A27B9A6296D9.jpeg


On Clubhouse tonight at 10pm LA time

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1355983231988862978?s=21

Clubhouse iOS app: ‎Clubhouse: Drop-in audio chat
 

Hock1

Member
Jan 21, 2017
676
6,330
Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida
You are completely backwards in you understanding of this issue.

This was NEVER about the stock split; it was ALWAYS about declaring a CASH DIVIDEND vs declaring a SHARE DIVIDEND.

A cash divended could easily have been paid by short-selling Market Makers (cash is fungible).

A share dividend could NEVER be paid by short sellers WITHOUT buying real shares on the market to pay with.

This is the fundamental issue you seem to be missing entirely: only TESLA has the sovereign right to issue TSLA shares.

Certain Options Market Makers were abusing their exemption to the prohibition against naked short selling, to the point where quite likely over 50% of the float was perpetually naked short.

That is illegal, and Tesla tripped them up by issuing a share dividend instead of a cash dividend. Ask any one of the many commenters (I have them bookmarked) one this forum why they didn't receive their dividend shares in time for the Open on Mon, Aug 31, 2020 but had to wait 2 days or more to receive their legally owned shares.

It's because Tesla 'rescued' the shortzes and MMs by issuing a $5B share offering on Tue, Sep 2020 which allowed the MMs to cover their naked short position, and provide the dividend shares they owed to their customers.

The fact that this is NOT the subject of a huge class-action lawsuit is a testament to the tilted legal playing field that exists to gather evidence of wrong-doing by market makers and brokerages. Shareholders could have sold for as much as $545/share on Mon, Aug but they did not have access to their legally-owned assets.

The fact the you don't appear to know any of this makes you look even more foolish than the condescending meme you posted in your comment, which I have redacted.

Not a good look, young padawan. :(
Thanks, AD
 

Featsbeyond50

Member
Apr 27, 2019
216
545
Washington
To be fair- the regulators themselves say Tesla didn't check with them first and that they can't say for sure yet if it's legal or not.

So it's not especially comical- it's a perfectly valid thing to point out.






This wouldn't be the first time Tesla showed a demo picture with hardware it's not actually legal to sell (like the Cybertruck without side mirrors).

And we've already had folks find pictures of a refreshed S with a "normal" round wheel poking around the website too.


2021.5 Tesla Model S: Proof a Round Steering Wheel Option Might Exist!
I really hope that yolk steering control comes to fruition because I think it's a great look. Saying this feels like an oxymoron but the yolk really accentuates the starkness of the dash.

I've never been a car guy, but back in the late 80's I was friends with a couple of guys who were into this certain type of car. I forgot the type, maybe Karmann Ghia, but I do remember they told me one of the things they liked was the starkness of the dash. Just a dial or two and nothing else. Ever since then, that's one thing I've always appreciated. The more bare the dash, the better. Now MY car company is sporting the barest, coolest dash ever. Love it.
 

jdw

Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2015
687
1,315
Vancouver
using a lighthearted set of thoughts, one could suggest that these ?millenials? in GME are very aware of Tesla, since i have seen memes of “stonks” and “69,420” on some of the reddit forums, which i vaguely (pardon my failing memory due to advanced age) recall Elon seemed to say. Also my children, millenials, expect to get EV’s, have a few fractional shares and own multiple TSLA (yay!).
so to me, yes, GME is related to Tesla and there should be flow of capital extracted into TSLA.

I think the short term relevance is that TSLA is among the stocks currently being liquidated by MM/Brokers/Hedge Funds to cover the bill for the current GME shorts. Long term, I agree that there will be a net inflow back to TSLA, hopefully much larger than the liquidations ...
 

Lessmog

Active Member
Aug 24, 2013
2,655
6,680
Smögen
I really hope that yolk steering control comes to fruition because I think it's a great look. Saying this feels like an oxymoron but the yolk really accentuates the starkness of the dash.

I've never been a car guy, but back in the late 80's I was friends with a couple of guys who were into this certain type of car. I forgot the type, maybe Karmann Ghia, but I do remember they told me one of the things they liked was the starkness of the dash. Just a dial or two and nothing else. Ever since then, that's one thing I've always appreciated. The more bare the dash, the better. Now MY car company is sporting the barest, coolest dash ever. Love it.
Yes, you are obviously egged :D
Karmann Ghia was indeed an iconic roadster, as a rebuild on a generic VW Bug.
 
  • Funny
Reactions: EVMeister

UnknownSoldier

Unknown Member
Apr 17, 2017
1,900
10,192
Earth
I think the short term relevance is that TSLA is among the stocks currently being liquidated by MM/Brokers/Hedge Funds to cover the bill for the current GME shorts. Long term, I agree that there will be a net inflow back to TSLA, hopefully much larger than the liquidations ...
There's quite a bit of chatter about what people should reinvest in after the Battle of Gamestop is over, and I've seen multiple posters say they will go for TSLA because of Elon's supporting tweets last week and also I don't know if anyone realizes this but TSLA and Elon have been memetic at WSB for years. A decent number of WSB people became Teslanaires during the 2019/2020 run-up and it's not like no one noticed.
 

Lycanthrope

S3XY old dude
Nov 15, 2013
9,056
69,035
At home
I really wish Tesla didn't do the 2k price adjustments. Sorry but some Tesla buyers have become crybabies about everything that isn't how they like and Tesla shouldn't enable them even more.

If you don't like the new pricing or feel it's worth....cancel your order. Simple as that. Man people :confused:

I'm of completely the opposite opinion and think Tesla should honour the orders at the price they were ordered.

Very poor customer service IMO.

Maybe another option - give FSD for free, costs nothing, customer probably satisfied.
 

mickle

Member
Apr 30, 2019
179
2,340
California
Well that steering wheel is straight up not street legal in multiple countries, including possibly the US depending on how the NHTSA rules, so hopefully they will discuss the round steering wheel option.

Honestly I would really, really like the ANC (Active Noise Cancellation) to come to 3/Y at some point. Teslas are very loud cars when driven at speed, it would be a huge QoL improvement to bring that to the bigger volume models.

It could be the new S has gone to double-pane glass, maybe even the roof glass? Or maybe the new bullet-proof glass?
 

Lessmog

Active Member
Aug 24, 2013
2,655
6,680
Smögen
I'm of completely the opposite opinion and think Tesla should honour the orders at the price they were ordered.

Very poor customer service IMO.

Maybe another option - give FSD for free, costs nothing, customer probably satisfied.
Well, it seems to me there are more dimensions here.
E.g. I like it when Tesla lowers prices; if they stuck to the price at time of order instead many would be rightly upset to have to go back in the queue if they want the new price. On the other hand they seem to try to honour the prior price even in the face of rising costs.

Overall, I think Tesla is doing the right thing, mostly. Even if it costs me to change paint.
 

MXWing

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
7,307
17,979
USA
There's quite a bit of chatter about what people should reinvest in after the Battle of Gamestop is over, and I've seen multiple posters say they will go for TSLA because of Elon's supporting tweets last week and also I don't know if anyone realizes this but TSLA and Elon have been memetic at WSB for years. A decent number of WSB people became Teslanaires during the 2019/2020 run-up and it's not like no one noticed.

Yep all the rainbow bears not supporting GameStop or putting their head in the sand don’t realize that Papa Elon and Mama Cathie are the heroes of WSB. 100 percent, Tesla is the vehicle of choice for these degenerates.

We help them win, they will help us win.
 

Nocturnal

Supporting Member
Aug 23, 2018
6,319
32,314
In the middle
Yep all the rainbow bears not supporting GameStop or putting their head in the sand don’t realize that Papa Elon and Mama Cathie are the heroes of WSB. 100 percent, Tesla is the vehicle of choice for these degenerates.

We help them win, they will help us win.
That's just the cherry on top. Most of those guys are under 30, probably skewing closer to 20 on average. The younger someone is the less likely they are to have any aspirational cars that aren't Teslas. When I was a teen I dreamt of lambos and whatnot, now they dream of roadsters and cybertrucks.
 

rallykeeper

Member
Jul 9, 2013
255
893
Southern California
You are completely backwards in you understanding of this issue.

This was NEVER about the stock split; it was ALWAYS about declaring a CASH DIVIDEND vs declaring a SHARE DIVIDEND.

A cash divended could easily have been paid by short-selling Market Makers (cash is fungible).

A share dividend could NEVER be paid by short sellers WITHOUT buying real shares on the market to pay with.

Only engaging once again, because of this post and it's a weekend, but Spacecash is right.

Please read this article. https://www.thecorporatecounsel.net/miscccnet/sample-tcc.pdf

It very clearly articulates why Delaware corporations -- like Tesla -- do not engage in stock splits but instead use share dividends.

This is as opposed to the other share split that happened in August with Apple, a California corporation -- where California's code explicitly allows for non-shareholder approved stock splits.

As to securities lending mechanics, here's an example of a securities lending agreement: Securities Lending Agreement. You'll note that in Section 5(f)(ii) stock splits and stock dividends are treated exactly the same. The Borrower has the exact same obligations under either scenario.

Importantly, the newly-issued shares only have to be delivered upon a request by the lending agent or the underlying fund. The brokers certainly wouldn't have made that request -- neither would the many mutual fund holders and other institutional investors. They were lending securities for the income, not to play games with shorts. They had zero reason to recall the newly-issued shares unless they were transacting. If they were transacting, the result would have been the same for either "splits" or "splits via share dividend".

Instead, most large holders simply let the number of shares subject to the loan increase and continued to collect their fees. Any quirks seen that week were simply the result of hiccups in the plumbing of the securities system. Given the volume of Tesla securities lending, you were bound to see issues.
 

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