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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

jbcarioca

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2015
5,068
22,899
You've hit on a lot of the reasons I believe we'll see two new factory announcements, namely access to more talent and the fact that they are sitting on a mountain of cash. Localized factories are human resource attraction plays...
Locations may also not be limited solely to manufacturing facilities. I think we'll start seeing R&D centres as well as continued raw material or other supply chain investments.

Indonesia is definitely on the short list and an announcement in Q1-Q2 would not come as a surprise to anyone in this forum.

I'm not as bullish on India...

If I were throwing darts, Indonesia, another Asian country (Japan or South Korea perhaps), and Mexico would be my guess on near term announcements. I would also place equal weight on a potential US announcement for continued battery and other energy product development and manufacturing.
At this point I suspect that the primary driving forces will be access to raw materials plus specific incentives that accelerate deployment and adoption. Much of the world is in flux at the moment debating on energy policy and industrial development. Thus I suspect there will be a surprise or two coming in the next year. Indonesia is likely, but another EU location, another China location, and a surprise will happen. Indonesia certainly will be one large battery factory.

It would also be quite likely that some Tilburg-style CKD+ factories might crop in in places such as South Africa, Argentina, Israel or elsewhere. Both Brazil and Mexico are probable for different reasons but 2022 is most likely for those. All those unusual ones are most likely not to be Gigafactories but will be purpose-built to accommodate Model 2? or equivalent world cars.

Unless disaster strikes 2022 is likely to be all about broadening the Tesla footprint. Thus TE and automotive will have different emphasis depending on local conditions.

I'll wait until next year to know whether I have a clue about this or not.
 

StealthP3D

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2018
8,629
63,226
Maple Falls, WA
Elon's brilliance and fearlessness has always been tinged with a bit of what appears to be craziness as well as unpredictability. In the long run, many of his actions and goals which initially seemed to be based on foolish optimism actually turn out to be visionary. Electric cars, reusable rockets, direct-to-consumer car sales, all seemed absurd previously.

Elon only appears unpredictable and crazy to to us normal blind folks whose brains are not wired in such a way to allow us to process and reiteratively reprocess vast amounts of information (observations) until a vision of the most likely future comes out at the end. Elon's brain, on the other hand, is equipped to process like this, mostly unconsciously. You might say he is making good use of the amazing neural net he was born with. In earlier times, these people were called various things from seers to witches. Sometimes people like this are simply thought of as being extra intuitive. Some thought that people with vision were possessed by spirits. In reality, they could just process the same information we are all exposed to much more efficiently than we can and see the most likely outcome. Sometimes the answer doesn't even seem to make logical sense.

Elon has learned to trust his intuitive vision because it has proven to be useful and more accurate than not. I believe that is why he came up with or adopted the phrase, "Don't doubt your vibe". Elon has learned he has the best 'luck' when he goes with the flow and does whatever seems best. I'm sure he filters it with the left side of his brain by thinking logically and asking himself, "what's the worse thing that could happen?" and, as long as it's not complete disaster, he goes with what he intuitively thinks will end with the best result.

As an investor, that's exactly the kind of CEO I want!
 

ReddyLeaf

Active Member
Mar 19, 2014
1,493
2,083
WA State
Any of you options whisperers have any thoughts on where they're looking to push this thing today? Clearly a walkdown but where are they going?

edit: here we go.

edit..nevermind. they keep going for the big push but then it gets bought up right away. good sign! Still think it's going lower before a hard bounce.
Friday’s close looks to be just a touch shy of $860 but above $857.50.
 

jbcarioca

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2015
5,068
22,899
Also, biometrics are to be avoided because they are not revocable (e.g. if a criminal copies and abuses your fingerprint, you can't just have a new one issued).
These days facial recognition has largely replaced fingerprints. FWIW, as a citizen of both Brazil and the US I have facial recognition on both sides. Today in some US airports, MIA last week for example) I did not even need to show the passport, just confirm the data displayed by facial recognition. In Brazil it is still to step, passport and facial recognition. In both countries I have not had to speak with a human being at all. My bank in Brazil also uses facial recognition including online transaction confirmation, just like Apple Pay and others.

In other applications retina scans are used too.
These days most advanced users no longer use fingerprints at all. They are too unreliable in general since as much as 15% of the population typically has worn figures anyway. Tesla cameras are almost certain to begin using facial recognition for driver identification, although they don't do it yet.
 

Drax7

Active Member
May 18, 2013
2,066
4,678
Florida
Elon only appears unpredictable and crazy to to us normal blind folks whose brains are not wired in such a way to allow us to process and reiteratively reprocess vast amounts of information (observations) until a vision of the most likely future comes out at the end. Elon's brain, on the other hand, is equipped to process like this, mostly unconsciously. You might say he is making good use of the amazing neural net he was born with. In earlier times, these people were called various things from seers to witches. Sometimes people like this are simply thought of as being extra intuitive. Some thought that people with vision were possessed by spirits. In reality, they could just process the same information we are all exposed to much more efficiently than we can and see the most likely outcome. Sometimes the answer doesn't even seem to make logical sense.

Elon has learned to trust his intuitive vision because it has proven to be useful and more accurate than not. I believe that is why he came up with or adopted the phrase, "Don't doubt your vibe". Elon has learned he has the best 'luck' when he goes with the flow and does whatever seems best. I'm sure he filters it with the left side of his brain by thinking logically and asking himself, "what's the worse thing that could happen?" and, as long as it's not complete disaster, he goes with what he intuitively thinks will end with the best result.

As an investor, that's exactly the kind of CEO I want!

Don’t buy this psychic babble explanation, it’s pure rationalization
Equally plausible is that he is somewhat delusional .

Take the utility of the falcon doors , that cost Tesla a considerable amount.
 

FreqFlyer

Member
Jan 24, 2019
752
2,672
Austin,Texas
Thank you Mod, must have been all of the Bitcoin posts that confused me.

Tesla Summoned by Chinese Regulators on Quality Issues

SHANGHAI— Tesla Inc. TSLA 1.31% has been summoned by Chinese authorities citing consumer complaints about quality issues, a warning for the electric-vehicle maker in a country where it has enjoyed a welcome rarely seen for foreign companies.

The State Administration for Market Regulation, China’s top market regulator, said Monday that it and four other regulators had instructed Tesla to abide by Chinese laws and regulations and strengthen internal management to ensure the quality and safety of its products.

It was a rare rebuke for Tesla, the first foreign auto maker to operate a wholly-owned plant in China.

~~~ BItcoin Discussed hours and hours and hours ago. Moderators have multiple times alerted participants to DO YOUR BITCOIN RESEARCH (look back through at least the day's posts) before placing some Bitcoin news headline in the thread. Or do you really think that you're the first past the post?

By the way, did anyone notice Tesla has incorporated bitcoin into its Treasury holdings?~~~
 

goinfraftw

Supporting Member
Dec 27, 2020
172
1,579
USA
wtf? In what simulated universe would Robinhood have more searches than Tesla? So weird.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=/m/0dr90d,/m/011q8ct1,/m/05p0rrx

Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 10.02.59 AM.png


Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 10.04.03 AM.png
 
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brantse

Supporting Member
May 18, 2015
501
1,310
Somerset, PA
Thank you Mod, must have been all of the Bitcoin posts that confused me.

Tesla Summoned by Chinese Regulators on Quality Issues

SHANGHAI— Tesla Inc. TSLA 1.31% has been summoned by Chinese authorities citing consumer complaints about quality issues, a warning for the electric-vehicle maker in a country where it has enjoyed a welcome rarely seen for foreign companies.

The State Administration for Market Regulation, China’s top market regulator, said Monday that it and four other regulators had instructed Tesla to abide by Chinese laws and regulations and strengthen internal management to ensure the quality and safety of its products.

It was a rare rebuke for Tesla, the first foreign auto maker to operate a wholly-owned plant in China.

~~~ BItcoin Discussed hours and hours and hours ago. Moderators have multiple times alerted participants to DO YOUR BITCOIN RESEARCH (look back through at least the day's posts) before placing some Bitcoin news headline in the thread. Or do you really think that you're the first past the post?

By the way, did anyone notice Tesla has incorporated bitcoin into its Treasury holdings?~~~
You've posted, reiterated and repeated this many times since yesterday. Me wonders if you have an agenda :rolleyes:
 

Crowded Mind

Member
Oct 26, 2014
651
1,731
United States
I interrupt the current BTC programming to share my thoughts after reading through the 10-K. I think there are some very interesting comments laced through the disclosures, as well as some subtle tweaks to language from prior years.

TL;DR:
  1. Market underappreciates the year over year Gross Margin improvement as well as how much operating leverage Tesla has achieved;
  2. Deferred Tax Asset Valuation Allowance saga continues, and will continue to snowball in size. Compounded with operating leverage, this is a significant future unlock of net operating margins;
  3. Stock based compensation is impacting multiple expenses categories (cost of goods sold, R&D, and general operating expenditures); this directly impacts a number of the standard ratios and metrics analysts use to value financial health and valuation of companies and makes Tesla very difficult to compare against "peers";
  4. Tesla intends to establish its own ride-hailing network - this is no longer just speculation or inference from a robo-taxi blue sky presentation from years ago - they explicitly state it for the first time in their 10-K;
  5. I am expecting announcements of at least two new factories in 2021;
---

Gross Margins (GM): Margin expansion was actually stronger than it appeared. 2019 had a downward revision ($451M) to Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) due to management having increased the likelihood of resale guarantee utilization (remember that program where Tesla guaranteed a certain percentage of resale values?). If estimates are that more people will exercise that option, then Tesla buys back the vehicle and gets to resell it (assumed at a gain, as they would tack on full FSD on re-sale). Management had increased their estimate utilization of that program, so they decreased the COGS related to vehicles subject to those options so as to account for the potential future gain on resale. This made 2019 GM higher (and likely was what they needed to keep margins above the 20% threshold).

Moreover, Tesla had $213M of idle capacity charges (i.e., you still incur costs relating to your factory even if its not producing anything - those costs get charged to COGS - essentially increasing the overall COGS per unit produced from that factory in the year), relating to factory shut downs due to pandemic. So, if you add $451M to 2019 COGS and remove $213M from 2020 COGS, you actually get to a 2019 GM of 19.1% (vs. 21.2%) and a 2020 GM of 26.4% (vs. 25.6%). That's impressive GM growth and shows the power of localized manufacturing (e.g., Shanghai) and equally highlights the benefits of Model Y cost structure being similar to Model 3, yet priced at a premium. I would not be shocked to see Tesla pushing 30-40% GM in the near future, especially if FSD take rates improve at all.

For transparency, estimates around the resale options as well as warranty reserves are two HIGHLY subjective areas and would be one area that management can pull a lot of accounting levers to achieve desired outcomes. In fact, this is fully disclosed in PwC's audit report as critical areas of the audit. This essentially is a cover-your-*** statement from PwC should the actual resales value program utilization or actual warranty expenses vary materially from current management estimates.

Deferred Tax Asset (DTA) and Valuation Allowance (VA): Tesla has been accumulating tax losses and tax credits for many years. Generally, when an entity accumulates these losses and credits, they effectively are building DTAs, assets that they will be able to apply against taxes payable in future years due to future profitability. From a financial reporting perspective, entities can only show this as an asset on their balance sheet if there is a "more likely than not" (generally >50%) probability that they will actually consume the assets in the foreseeable future. Tesla has yet to agree with their auditors as to the likelihood of utilization of some of these DTAs. As such, they have applied a VA against their DTA. Fancy way of saying they are valuing the DTA as $0 for reporting purposes.

If and when they release that VA, it will be a $3B+ boost to Net Income and a significant lift to Operating Margin %s. I would estimate we see all or part of that VA be released over the next 1-3 years. The reason for the range (rather than my taking the stance that 2021 WILL be the year of release of VA) would be that Tesla currently generates significant tax deductions due to their stock-based compensation (SBC) plan with Elon, and to a lesser extent, most of their employees. As those shares/options vest, Tesla gets significant tax write-offs relative to their Financial Statement Net Income. As long as those write-offs are sufficient to off-set immediate taxes payable, Tesla may not release the VA on their accumulated DTAs. Though at current market cap and operational milestone pace, it's likely that the CEO compensation package is fully taken in to account within the next 1-2 years which, compounded with continued growing profitability, would culminate in a release of the VA in that 1-3 year window.

R&D Expense: Increased $148M year over year, $62M related to materials testing (could be prototype equipment, could be testing different raw materials for battery chemistry or manufacturing processes, either way - its a lot of something), and $61M due to SBC on R&D staff.

SG&A: More than 100% of growth in SG&A expenses was from... you guessed it... SBC. SG&A would have otherwise decreased, which again confirms the theory that Tesla is now at the point in their growth journey of unlocking MASSIVE operating leverage. In other words, Tesla's rate of generating sales far outpaces its rate of incurring operating expenses, meaning incremental vehicle sales will continue to disproportionately increase Net Income, and thus Net Operating Margin %, and thus EPS. I would not be surprised to see double digit Net Operating Margin in the next 2-3 years (from the current 2.2%) especially when you consider the potential release of VA on DTAs. This is a significant potential unlock to valuation of Tesla as analysts get comfortable with that reality.

FSD: This is the first time I've seen Tesla explicitly state that "We intend to establish in the future an autonomous Tesla ride-hailing network, which we expect would also allow us to access a new customer base even as modes of transportation evolve."; I checked their 2019 10-K and most recent 10-Q and there is no mention of that intention. This will add fuel to the revenue streams that analysts will be forced to consider in their own valuation models and again solidifying a significant portion of Tesla's valuation.

Engineering: Similar to FSD, Tesla has made a new statement in this 10-K "As we increase our capabilities, particularly in the areas of automation, die-making and line-building, we are also making strides in the simulations modeling these capabilities prior to construction." Making the machine that makes the machine. Tesla's product road map is as much factory design and building as it is the products those factories build. I would not be shocked to hear of several new factory announcements this year and equally not be shocked if we see the ramp in Berlin and Texas to be significantly faster than Shanghai.

---

Conclusion: Anyone selling off because of BTC is forgetting that this is still just the beginning for Tesla.

You mention the adjustments to COGS but there are similar adjustments to revenue that I think you need to account for with your point on margins.
 
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Spacep0d

Member
Apr 20, 2019
980
1,100
Santa Clarita, CA
Don’t buy this psychic babble explanation, it’s pure rationalization
Equally plausible is that he is somewhat delusional .

Take the utility of the falcon doors , that cost Tesla a considerable amount.

FYI the phrase is 'psychobabble' and has nothing to do with so-called psychics. I don't think it's 'equally plausible' that Elon is 'somewhat delusional' either. He may be wrong about Bitcoin but how delusional can the CEO of SpaceX and Tesla really be given what he's accomplished? Of course, Elon will be wrong here and there because he's human—but only just. Delusional? Too strong a word.

Falcon Doors are not just about utility. 'Cool' factor is important, and EVs had to wrestle with being 'uncool' before Tesla came along and changed all of this almost single-handedly. Being stupid quick doesn't hurt either. No need for marketing....just pull up next to a Tesla at a stoplight and watch the 'ad' unfold.

I think every genius is confused for a madman some of the time, to Stealth's point. :D
 

LN1_Casey

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus
Mar 6, 2019
1,997
9,927
Oahu, Hawaii
Alright, who jinxed the stock price?

Any of you options whisperers have any thoughts on where they're looking to push this thing today? Clearly a walkdown but where are they going?

edit: here we go.

edit..nevermind. they keep going for the big push but then it gets bought up right away. good sign! Still think it's going lower before a hard bounce.

YOU.
 

Johan

Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Feb 9, 2012
7,465
9,506
Drammen, Norway
Don’t buy this psychic babble explanation, it’s pure rationalization
Equally plausible is that he is somewhat delusional .

Take the utility of the falcon doors , that cost Tesla a considerable amount.

You have to admit though that Elon has some pretty powerful first principles thinking skills, which gives him this strange ability to "see beyond" everything that is irrelevant and somehow find the most direct path to big solutions?
 

StealthP3D

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2018
8,629
63,226
Maple Falls, WA
[
Don’t buy this psychic babble explanation, it’s pure rationalization
Equally plausible is that he is somewhat delusional .

It flew over your head. I was saying the explanation wasn't psychic powers or witchcraft, it was simple analysis through observation. If you understand how the world works now, how it arrived at this point from a previous point and what trends are in play, then a person with the neurons wired the right way can see the most likely future than better than most of us.

Some people are not adept at even understanding how the world works now or how we got to where we are. Elon's outsized and out-numbered successes show beyond any reasonable doubt that he is more suited to be making effective decisions than most people. And that he's not delusional (at all). Delusional people fail because they have a distorted view of reality. That's proof that he's not delusional. Elon may do things in unconventional ways but he could not be as successful being more conventional. Of course none of this is to say he doesn't make mistakes, everyone does.

It's better to measure success or failure by the results rather than whether you think the method employed is the most effective way. The results don't lie. The bottom line is where did you end up? You don't have to answer that - I was talking about Elon Musk, not you.;)
 

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