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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

Pezpunk

Active Member
Aug 12, 2016
1,454
12,918
Bristow, VA
Will it end their assaults, or be considered an admission of guilt?

Either way it forces them to change tactics, which waters down their message and allows Tesla to move forward. As far as sacrifices go, it's nothing. It's the product name of a collection of features. It's very, very low on the list of things Tesla needs to dominate the world.
 
Jan 7, 2015
280
2,275
Earth/EU/DK
To follow up, I remember that @LiveLong&Profit made a terrific post about GigaNevada few days ago (here in the Posts of Particular Merit thread): does this change your view? Is it still a good investment for Tesla to put a lot of PVs on the roof if they think they will close the factory in 5 years?
People in the comments of the Teslarati posts mention that the Reno area is seeing a lot of growth recently from people fleeing from California. Maybe Giga2 will live, after all.
Kind words - many thanks!

Yes, it somewhat changes my view.
Only somewhat, though. The missing but promised solar panels are a bit of an IOU: Tesla has been cash-strapped, and bandwidth-strapped for years, but with ~20B in cash, at some point you run out of excuses for not having many of your rooftops covered in solar panels if you want to be taken seriously as a global new energy leader. Better late than never...! Tesla is getting to a point where ill-will and bad PR is more costly than just doing the right thing, and carpet-bomb your roofs with solar, regardless of any long-term plan. You can can chalk it up to marketing.

Yeah, it seems there is a stampede of people fleeing California in general and going to Austin (amongst them a lot of comedians I follow, so not only business but also culture...) and some (much fewer i suspect) might stamp by Nevada as well, good point.

Tesla epitomizes being agile. Just because they have pivoted away from Giga Nevada does not preclude them pivoting back! I could see them using Giga Nevada for a lot of things, but fundamentally, the co-location effect of people and goods seems very important in Elons and Teslas world-view.
If, in the end, bright and talented engineers are the critical gating function for Teslas future growth then the question we must answer is: Where do bright and talented engineers want to live?
 

dl003

Active Member
Nov 22, 2019
1,448
12,614
Texas
Either way it forces them to change tactics, which waters down their message and allows Tesla to move forward. As far as sacrifices go, it's nothing. It's the product name of a collection of features. It's very, very low on the list of things Tesla needs to dominate the world.
That only works if they are legitimately concerned citizens & regulators. My bet is once TSLA has changed the name, they will have zero trouble finding something else and they are going to be exactly like this: "Remember Tesla admitted it was wrong to name the feature Autopilot? Now they are doing THIS."
 

FastCompany

Supporting Member
Feb 9, 2019
22
203
Canada
Regarding Omar’s tweet: Wasn’t their supposed to be a green new deal announcement today?
Maybe Elon will announce that his sons will take TSLA private with their recent gains on Doge.

Screen Shot 2021-04-20 at 8.54.22 AM.png


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jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Mar 8, 2012
19,632
22,281
Texas
Emotionally I agree. However, the better technology becomes the easier using it becomes. That certainly is the case with aircraft as it is with automobiles and computers. "Dumbing down" iOS the process that allows broader acceptance; it is making operation easier and more intuitive while being less error prone.
Then why is iOS much harder and less intuitive to use now? Some of that is replacing colours with shades of grey that aren't always apparent at a glance. But a lot of it is that it's now much harder to find what you want to do. (and yes, iOS isn't as bad as some others).
 

2daMoon

Mostly Harmless
Nov 25, 2020
685
4,816
Terra
Regarding words, names and trademarks -

First - and I do say this not with humility but with pride - I think that most here recognize, and some acknowledge, that I wear the mantle of TMC’s word maven. The most “Disagrees” I’ve ever garnered was, in fact, for a post in which I declared “Words matter.”

Now, I understand, appreciate but disagree with the crux of @jbcarioca’s post. @Unpilot, @StealthP3D, @Krugerrand and others disagree for different reasons; mine are encompassed in my reasonably longstanding Sig-line. In that the new TMC format truncates signatures, I’m repeating it in-post:

”To NHTSA, NTSB and German Courts: Ban the deceptive word ‘Automobile’!”

Now, before someone jumps in with historical claims of intent: no - you cannot claim that “auto” means “horseless”, because it does not, regardless of whether that was indeed the intent of the word’s originators. However, even if you wish to take that line, it thereupon opens the use of the prefix to mean exactly what Tesla chooses it to mean.

And yes, I am being tongue-in-cheek with my call for proscription. Rather, I am using my line’s obvious facetiousness to shame them for their two-facedness. It is utterly incumbent to the point that ===>NO<=== deviation must occur upon those in authority and those charged with upholding and interpreting the law that they remain consistent in their dictates and terminology. One cannot, I aver, turn a blind eye to the idiocy of “automobile” and then proscribe “autopilot”.

With that, I would address @jbcarioca’s concerns by suggesting that rather than capitulating and altering its name, there should be a movement, one in which Mr Musk should aggressively participate, to excoriate those criticizing “autopilot” by revealing this double standard - this duplicity.
Additionally, for those old enough to recall when "Cruise Control" appeared as an option on cars, there were were incidents where drivers engaged cruise and then fully expected the car to drive itself (rather than merely keep the speed constant as intended).

There were collisions and deaths as a result. Yet, "Cruise Control" survived. Now, years later, it is perfectly clear what the term's meaning is to the majority of drivers.

Tesla's Autopilot and FSD are so much safer, even in circumstances where the meaning is misunderstood. It will actively attempt to prevent a crash due to negligence. Not always successfully, mostly because humans are particularly clever in finding ways to harm themselves.

At some point we need to accept that part of the evolution of any species on the planet includes mistakes that result in death, and in disruption for that gene set propagating further. No amount of Luddishness or Political Correctness can overcome people's ability to make stupid mistakes.
 

Joe F

Disruption is hard.
Sep 19, 2016
1,960
8,640
Outside Philly
I don't know. According to my wife, they had the Tesla crash on the Today Show this morning, talking about how it took 4 hours to put out the fire (which we have known since yesterday is NOT true). I'm sick of it.
Fight fire with fire?

Those of us with Twitter: Ask the Harris County Fire Marshal's Office Twitter account, @hcfmo and tag the Today Show's Twitter @TODAYshow asking why it took their fire company 4 hours to put out a raging fire. Maybe tag Tesla, Musk and someone with a ton of followers to amplify the message. I'm going to tag CNBC as well, not that they care...

Let the FUD correction come from the fire department.

Word it stating that you saw on the Today Show that your fire department took four hours to put out a car fire, and ask why would it take them so long?
 

Curt Renz

Well-Known Member
Mar 5, 2013
6,506
84,206
USA
Teslarati - this morning: Fire Chief Debunks Media Coverage of Tesla Crash

Excerpt of fire chief's comments:

“With respect to the fire fight, unfortunately, those rumors grew way out of control. It did not take us four hours to put out the blaze. Our guys got there and put down the fire within two to three minutes, enough to see the vehicle had occupants. After that, it was simply cooling the car as the batteries continued to have a chain reaction due to damage.

“We could not tear it apart or move it around to get ‘final extinguishment’ because the fact that we had two bodies in there and it was then an investigation-slash-crime scene. We had to keep it cool, were on scene for four hours, but we were simply pouring a little bit of water on it. It was not because flames were coming out. It was a reaction in the battery pan. It was not an active fire,”
Buck said.

“We did not (call Tesla), and I do not know where (that rumor) came from. There is a chance someone else did, maybe the Harris County Fire Marshal, but we did not call (Tesla). Tesla has an emergency manual for first responders,

“The first calls that came in were a fire in the woods. Then we got at 9:30 p.m. where we got the first call when someone said, ‘I see a car in a tree, and it is on fire. They reported a car hit a tree, and it had exploded… That is when we added extra units (to the response). There is a big lake, and (the accident) was just to the left of the lake, closer to the exiting part of the street, not the end of the cul de sac. It was at an undeveloped lot.

“(The Tesla) was heavily involved in flames. When the fire was put out, it was noticed there were two bodies (inside), and they were deceased. They continued extinguishment of the woods around (the car), putting out the trees and pine needles and what have you. I was there probably five to 10 minutes after that and at that point, every once in a while, the (battery) reaction would flame and it was mainly keeping water pouring on the battery,”
Buck explained, adding that this was a process recommended by Tesla in cases of burning batteries.
 

FreqFlyer

Member
Jan 24, 2019
757
2,662
Austin,Texas
Naming a product Autopilot gives the impression it can operate by itself. When a company constantly advertises it close to to FSD, one can expect the masses to leap ahead and do stupid tricks like in Houston or on Youtube. I wander what effect has this accident had on the next Beta FSD release. Of course Tesla does not want people putting themselves at risk doing these "tricks" and should be commended by keeping a tight lease on who gets future Beta FSD releases.
 

lafrisbee

Active Member
Dec 13, 2019
1,687
5,451
Indialantic FL
Regarding words, names and trademarks -

First - and I do say this not with humility but with pride - I think that most here recognize, and some acknowledge, that I wear the mantle of TMC’s word maven. The most “Disagrees” I’ve ever garnered was, in fact, for a post in which I declared “Words matter.”

Now, I understand, appreciate but disagree with the crux of @jbcarioca’s post. @Unpilot, @StealthP3D, @Krugerrand and others disagree for different reasons; mine are encompassed in my reasonably longstanding Sig-line. In that the new TMC format truncates signatures, I’m repeating it in-post:

”To NHTSA, NTSB and German Courts: Ban the deceptive word ‘Automobile’!”

Now, before someone jumps in with historical claims of intent: no - you cannot claim that “auto” means “horseless”, because it does not, regardless of whether that was indeed the intent of the word’s originators. However, even if you wish to take that line, it thereupon opens the use of the prefix to mean exactly what Tesla chooses it to mean.

And yes, I am being tongue-in-cheek with my call for proscription. Rather, I am using my line’s obvious facetiousness to shame them for their two-facedness. It is utterly incumbent to the point that ===>NO<=== deviation must occur upon those in authority and those charged with upholding and interpreting the law that they remain consistent in their dictates and terminology. One cannot, I aver, turn a blind eye to the idiocy of “automobile” and then proscribe “autopilot”.

With that, I would address @jbcarioca’s concerns by suggesting that rather than capitulating and altering its name, there should be a movement, one in which Mr Musk should aggressively participate, to excoriate those criticizing “autopilot” by revealing this double standard - this duplicity.
Seems to me the annoyance you have with the Germans would be with the autobahn, meinFurher.
 
Jan 7, 2015
280
2,275
Earth/EU/DK
I know there's nothing wrong with the name "Autopilot". But changing the name would disarm Tesla's enemies of one of their favorite weapons -- permanently ending one of the most common lines of attack. The cost to Tesla would be mild inconvenience. It's an easy win, objectively. But petty pride stand in the way of actually taking that road. Most people would rather FEEL strong and beat their chest stubbornly rather than actually BE strong and do the smart, pragmatic thing that would negatively impact their emotions for a moment, but ultimately move them closer to achieving their long-term goals.

Making actual, real-world large scale change requires intelligent choices that remove roadblocks from the path. Standing there yelling that the roadblock has no right to be there -- even correctly -- is the dumb thing to do. It makes one feel superior, but it is ultimately a weak course of action that accomplishes nothing.

We've been entrenched in the dumb "autopilot" name debate for YEARS. So rip the rug out from under Tesla's opponents. Problem solved. Force THEM to scramble and do the work to find some other tool to attack with, make THEM have to do the work of establishing some new negative narrative. Put THEM on the defensive and in a position of having to build a new obstacle somewhere else further down the path. It would cost Tesla practically nothing.

That's how to move forward on this if one cares more about the long-term goals than one's own ego.
Not sure it is pride standing in the way.
Should Tesla reward the bullying of the FUDsters (by caving and changing the name)? Being timid is not how you make bullies stop. Winning is.
 

Hock1

Member
Jan 21, 2017
678
6,354
Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida
The issue with the 25 new EVs in four years is the internal resistance at Toyota to EVs. Unless they have an outside partner that's pro-EV I don't see it happening--at least not on a large scale. I doubt that they will partner with Tesla because the last partnership didn't pan out. My understanding is that it was mainly due to Toyota wanting design changes that Tesla didn't have the capacity for. I would expect the same problem is there today because Tesla can sell all the cars it makes with their own designs. Adding third party designs would just slow things up.
A few questions:
Do you think that Tesla can grow enough to complete "the mission" on its own in any reasonable time frame? Or, alternatively, do you think that any of the legacy companies that are trying to get BEV tech up to speed, will do so quickly enough to help the mission in any meaningful way? If Tesla does not "lend" its technology superiority to Toyota (or any other legacy manufacturer), then who will? Please name these companies that are capable? With Tesla's undisputed and unchallenged superiority, time is of the essence for everyone.
 

jbcarioca

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2015
5,170
24,380
Regarding words, names and trademarks -

...

With that, I would address @jbcarioca’s concerns by suggesting that rather than capitulating and altering its name, there should be a movement, one in which Mr Musk should aggressively participate, to excoriate those criticizing “autopilot” by revealing this double standard - this duplicity.
I do admire your consistency and well-argued appeal to consistency even though I know that language is a living think so words constantly change in meaning. Those of us who are doomed to miscommunicate in more than one language have copies examples. I offer one only:
Exquisite in English. Esquisito in Portuguese. Both have the same etymology from the Latin 'to see out' but it means 'weird' in one language and 'unusually beautiful' in another.

Thus we come to truly bizarre prefix such as 'auto' which came from the Greek for 'self' or 'independent'.
Obviously such etymology makes obvious sense with automobile, since the vehicle and locomotion were internal to itself not implying navigation. Autopilot, correspondingly, received that name in 1912 when Lawrence Sperry invented it. the 'auto' prefix indicated that it reduced the workload of the human pilot.

The Greek easily accommodated such uses. However the word automatic came accurately from the Greek for 'acting of one's own will'.

Rigidity in use of words and their definitions is not possible in a living language. We rail and flail trying to prevent misinterpretation of the Tesla Autopilot or even Full Self Driving. How the common people understand those words is different. That we must accept rather than defeat the practice.

In practice even the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese and soon have all pretty much given up on language purity.

Back to Tesla. I suggest practicality, not purity. We all know words that are now considered profane or derogatory that were simply descriptive or complimentary a few years ago.

I only suggest the term Autopilot has been redefined to mean 'ability to act as a human driver without supervision', more or less as the Level 5 definition. Thus, the name should change because preservation is a losing battle. Rather like 'aspirin', for example.
 

Curt Renz

Well-Known Member
Mar 5, 2013
6,506
84,206
USA
ABC - this morning: Subaru - Engine & Suspension Recall

Excerpt:

Subaru is recalling nearly 875,000 cars and SUVs in the U.S. because the engines can stall or a rear suspension part can fall off.

The stalling recall covers more than 466,000 Crosstrek SUVs from 2018 and 2019 and Impreza cars from 2017 through 2019. The company says in government documents that a computer can power the ignition coil after the car is shut off. That can cause a short circuit.

Dealers will update the software, replace ignition coils and if necessary install a new front exhaust pipe. The recall is to start May 28.

The suspension recall affects more than 408,000 2018 and 2019 Crosstreks and 2019 Foresters. Some rear stabilizer bar bolts can loosen and detach, increasing the risk of a crash.
 

AudubonB

One can NOT induce accuracy with precision!
Mar 24, 2013
8,099
27,036
I do admire your consistency and well-argued appeal to consistency even though I know that language is a living think so words constantly change in meaning. Those of us who are doomed to miscommunicate in more than one language have copies examples. I offer one only:
Exquisite in English. Esquisito in Portuguese. Both have the same etymology from the Latin 'to see out' but it means 'weird' in one language and 'unusually beautiful' in another.

Thus we come to truly bizarre prefix such as 'auto' which came from the Greek for 'self' or 'independent'.
Obviously such etymology makes obvious sense with automobile, since the vehicle and locomotion were internal to itself not implying navigation. Autopilot, correspondingly, received that name in 1912 when Lawrence Sperry invented it. the 'auto' prefix indicated that it reduced the workload of the human pilot.

The Greek easily accommodated such uses. However the word automatic came accurately from the Greek for 'acting of one's own will'.

Rigidity in use of words and their definitions is not possible in a living language. We rail and flail trying to prevent misinterpretation of the Tesla Autopilot or even Full Self Driving. How the common people understand those words is different. That we must accept rather than defeat the practice.

In practice even the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese and soon have all pretty much given up on language purity.

Back to Tesla. I suggest practicality, not purity. We all know words that are now considered profane or derogatory that were simply descriptive or complimentary a few years ago.

I only suggest the term Autopilot has been redefined to mean 'ability to act as a human driver without supervision', more or less as the Level 5 definition. Thus, the name should change because preservation is a losing battle. Rather like 'aspirin', for example.
An exquisite response. Obrigado, meu irmāo.
 

Krugerrand

Was cat, now temporarily dog. 🤷‍♂️
Jul 13, 2012
10,918
54,040
Tesla friendly place
Emotionally I agree. However, the better technology becomes the easier using it becomes. That certainly is the case with aircraft as it is with automobiles and computers. "Dumbing down" iOS the process that allows broader acceptance; it is making operation easier and more intuitive while being less error prone. I suspect you'd agree with all that.

The problem I'm thinking about is just vocabulary. Nothing in my statements suggested dictating who does what. It does suggest making as much as possible easier to understand to poorly informed people. It has nothing to do with what is often called Political Correctnesss. It has to do with easy communication.

Many of us, are disagreeing with me, almost of of you are ones I respect. We do, I think, have an obligation to better understand the people buying Tesla products who are not Weill-informed, thoughtful or even well-disciplined. To wit: the early adopters, like most of us, are being joined by the 'hoi polloi'. How should Tesla cope with that transition?

Dumbing Down: making complex products usable by the mass market.
I think our disagreement is based on what we believe about humans at a core philosophical basis. I think too stupid to live is a valid stance for life.

This isn’t rocket science. You’re responsible for the operation of the vehicle at this time in history. You have to acknowledge that in vehicle before being allowed to operate it. That’s not complex regardless what the system is called. Call it Chocolate Doughnuts for all it matters.

English is a peculiar language. Has always been peculiar. Not Tesla’s fault people are purposefully obtuse, refusing to understand a word like autopilot and ultimately refusing to be responsible for their own actions.

So no, I don’t think we have to try and understand every potential buyer. Most don’t know what they need until it’s shown to them. Many fall for this ridiculous FUD and parrot it like it’s true. Tesla does enough hand holding as it is, imo. They aren’t responsible for changing people. The fact they’re trying to change the world doesn’t mean they should be held to some ridiculous level of responsibility. That’s what you’re advocating. I’m wholly against it because too stupid to live is a core belief for me. I own that.
 

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