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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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My model suggests a value around $600 after Q4 earnings so I think $500 would be fair new years day. Therefore, I will vote $150

My model predicts in order for a share price of $600 after expected Q4 earnings we'd need a PE of about 150.

Conversely, a share price of about $150 after Q4 earnings would require a PE of around 40.



So, either one is entirely a possible outcome! Also my model might be hokum! Cheers to us all anyway!!! :D
 
Elon sure seems to be having fun with Twitter sugar while the retail TSLA is being burned to the ground by shortzes, MMs and Hedgies .
Good for him, glad to see him happy.
Hold tight TSLA longs, we are about to be hit by a tsunami of selling today.
My prediction Didn’t age well.
Selling was orderly today.
TSLA managed to stay above 200 for another day.
Battle resumes in earnest Monday am .
Rest and recuperate this weekend my brave TSLA warriors .
 
My model predicts in order for a share price of $600 after expected Q4 earnings we'd need a PE of about 150.

Conversely, a share price of about $150 after Q4 earnings would require a PE of around 40.



So, either one is entirely a possible outcome! Also my model might be hokum! Cheers to us all anyway!!! :D
Thanks for the feedback. I do need to update my model. I had thought earnings would be a bit more from Berlin and Austin by now. So, even though I don't agree with the current stock price, it does seem that my model was too optimistic.
 
Options gamblers, maybe. Actual TSLA shareholders haven't been harmed unless they sold. Maybe the SEC can fix that for them? :p

I still own every single one of my TSLA shares. In fact, many TSLA long investors now have more TSLA shares than after AI Day 2.
I admit I am guilty of equating Reddit/Robinhood crowd to retail TSLA.
Apologies for being loose with the association.
 
Just a random theory:
Elon has said before (I think back in cybertruck announcement era) that they were done with new product announcements for a while. Right now, we are waiting for Cybertruck, Semi and Roadster.

Speaking just selfishly I sure would like some clarity on Roadster. There remains a giant hole in that market segment.
 
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If that’s not the solution, how the hell you could build it twice as fast as a Model 3 with half the factory footprint?
Amazing! Some guy on the internet can't see how the best manufacturing engineering company in the world is going to radically improve on a solution implemented over five years ago.

I'll give you an obvious answer. Tesla will make things much better because what they're doing now sucks! It's nowhere near "alien dreadnought" level. It was their first attempt at mass manufacturing and they had to make vast numbers of compromises. Now they can made fewer compromises.

This is how it always works. What you're doing today was created with what you knew yesterday, and you made so many mistakes it's really horribly embarrassing. But the next time can be way better. Of course soon after that will be embarrassing too, but at least it will be better.

This is why you don't fire people who make horrible mistakes (at least not the first time). You fire people who don't try.
 
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German customer here.

I have - among other Tesla cars - a MY P in red on order. I paid the reservation fee (€ 100) in December 2021. I paid the car in full in Mai 2022, hoping to nudge them for a quicker delivery.

Today I got an email, that my order was upgraded to the new red. I am very excited.

Tesla did the right thing: they adjusted the price - meaning, I am not going to pay more, but get a more valuable car.

Happy.

Now only if they deliver.....
 
Weekend content, but related to the above post:

Here is the complete original performance which Tesla used for their new color ad:


I now wish they'd used the entire song!!! :D
What I love about Tesla besides the cars, the mission, their leader and the stock? The humor. These two lederhosen guys and their kitch jodel’ing in marketing material paired up with the most advanced and state of the art electric vehicles. It’s priceless communication - and almost free - and clever af. Compared to all the serious and very boring commercials from the so-called competition.
 
That's sort of a big miss though, factoring in Forex. You can come up with excuses for every quarter, which I've done in a previous post.

Bottom line, gigantic miss. If Wall Street was off by that much we'd all be ridiculing them for how dumb/corrupt they are, so need to hold it both ways. While it may not be you explicitly who bashes traditional analyst estimates (too lazy to go through individual post history like some vindicitive wackos here), I see a lot of unfair slander thrown at a lot of these analysts.
...
At the end of the day we're all trying to make projections (short or long) to the best of our abilities, and the biases that we may have does not necessarily mean that one person's word is superior to another.

So I hope, moving forward, some respect is shown to everyone (except JPM and Gordon Johnson), about their thoughts. This should be a humbling experience for you, Rob, The Accountant, James Stephenson, etc. who had ridiculously divergent price targets.
The shade thrown at institutional analysts (with the exception of a few such as Alex Potter and Pierre Ferragu) is completely fair, because their estimation methodology completely sucks. Personally, I will explicitly bash their estimates. They have been very wrong in general and will continue to be very wrong.

Over and over again, institutional analysts have underestimated Tesla's performance, especially over the long haul but also on a quarterly level, as shown in the following table and charts.

The quarterly data uses institutional analyst consensus EPS expectations compiled by Zack's for each quarter since 2019. The average quarterly EPS prediction error was -25% of the actual EPS, with a cumulative error of $1.49 since 2019. This track record is especially egregious considering that all of these estimates were published immediately before each earnings release, after the production and delivery numbers were known, which (if we give analysts the benefit of the doubt regarding their good intentions) can only indicate that analysts have been consistently failing to understand the factors affecting Tesla's revenue and cost.

The annual forward-looking estimates for both vehicle production and earnings are far worse. I tried to find compiled data taken in December for each subsequent year, but couldn't find it. Instead, I resorted to looking up a few reports published by individual analysts.

If analysts had a 50/50 chance of guessing quarterly numbers too high or too low, the odds of guessing low on at least 12 of the last 13 quarters due to bad luck is 1/binom.dist(1,13,true) --> 585 to 1. Moreover, for the single instance in Q4 2020 when they estimated too high, it was only by 6% and that was mainly due to a $100M interest expense penalty that Tesla voluntarily paid to settle their convertible notes early. Without this unexpected one-time expense, the analyst consensus would have once again been 20% too low. If we want to count that as another miss, then that's 13 consecutive quarters of underestimation which has a 1 in 8,192 chance of happening randomly.

These results, along with the context of all the misunderstandings that apparently led analysts to their erroneous estimates, conclusively and unambiguously indicate systematic bias.

I would bet my life savings that their estimates for 2023, 2024 and beyond also are much too low just like all the previous estimates. Oh wait...I have bet my life savings on that prediction.


QuarterNon-GAAP Earnings per ShareEstimatedError% Error
Q1 2019-$0.19-$0.08$0.1158%
Q2 2019-$0.07-$0.04$0.0452%
Q3 2019$0.12-$0.01-$0.13-108%
Q4 2019$0.14$0.11-$0.03-24%
Q1 2020$0.08-$0.01-$0.10-118%
Q2 2020$0.15-$0.04-$0.19-129%
Q3 2020$0.25$0.18-$0.07-29%
Q4 2020$0.27$0.28$0.026%
Q1 2021$0.31$0.26-$0.05-15%
Q2 2021$0.48$0.30-$0.18-38%
Q3 2021$0.62$0.45-$0.17-28%
Q4 2021$0.85$0.67-$0.17-20%
Q1 2022$1.08$0.72-$0.36-33%
Q2 2022$0.76$0.64-$0.12-16%
Q3 2022$1.05$0.97-$0.08-8%
Totals / % Error Average$5.89$4.40-$1.49-25%

1666377708271.png
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1666381730104.png

There were 1.123 billion outstanding shares (diluted) at the time, so this translates to non-GAAP net income estimates of $10.0B and $11.8B in '22 and '23 respectively. '22 actual is already $9.3B just in the first 3 quarters and it's likely to be around $15-16B after Q4 gets added. This is tracking for a 50-60% beat despite Shanghai shutdowns and a highly unanticipated war in Europe. $11.8B for '23 is just...I have no words. Even Fremont and Shanghai by themselves will probably earn double or triple that in '23.

For another example, in May 2019 Joseph Spak from RBC Capital provided a price target equivalent to a ~$50B market cap and:
He expects Tesla to post a full-year 2019 loss of $6.58 a share [$1.1B with 173M outstanding shares as of Q1 '19], worse than his previous expectation for a loss of $5.71 a share, before that narrows in 2020 and reaches profitability in 2021. (Source)
Actual non-GAAP net income results:
'19: $0.04B
'20: $2.46B
'21: $7.64B

Let's bear in mind this estimate was published before anyone had heard of COVID-19, so nobody was anticipating factory lockdowns and major supply chain chaos.

There are only two respectable ways for someone to respond to inaccurate estimation:
  1. Acknowledge the problem, take responsibility and learn how to fix the model
    • (Note: this should be happening every time because all of our estimates are wrong and all we can hope for is to make our models less wrong over time)
  2. Cease publication of authoritative-sounding "expert" estimates until such time that #1 has been accomplished
I can't help but notice that institutional analysts have selected neither of these options, which means that either they are incompetent at this particular task or are corrupt liars, or both.
 
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I can't help but notice that institutional analysts have selected neither of these options, which means that either they are incompetent at this particular task or are corrupt liars, or both.
While I love your analysis, it's always fraught when we assign motives.

Perhaps it's the case that you just don't understand what these analyst estimates are intended to be? Perhaps accurate predictions of the future are not what the people who are paying for them are expecting?

Also, your criticism lacks context. We always complain about the constant drumbeat of such things as "Teslas burn!" when they leave out the "... at 1/10 the per capita rate of gas cars". So how about your complaints? How do these misses compare to how analysts do with other stocks? other growth stocks? AAPL?

Just seems to me that these considerations might be relevant before you get angry and make accusations. Me, in most cases I suspect you're quite right, leaning a bit more towards incompetent and too overworked to do the job right regardless.
 

Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority CEO Steve Hill said that the city's first Super Bowl has always been the target date, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported.

“I think it’s still a possibility,” Hill said of having the Vegas Loop operating by Feb. 11, 2024. “We are working to try and make that happen.”

Boring Co. expects construction to begin in 2023 with "5 to 10 stations coming online in the first six months" and "15-20 added each year until completion," the paper reported.

That suggests that only part of the system will be done before Super Bowl LVIII, Still, even a partial completion could have a major impact on traffic during large events.
 
While I love your analysis, it's always fraught when we assign motives.

Perhaps it's the case that you just don't understand what these analyst estimates are intended to be? Perhaps accurate predictions of the future is not what the people who are paying for them are expecting?
The estimates are presented as though they're intended to be accurate predictions.

If that's not the case, then they are misleading investors by leaving out clear messaging explaining the actual goal of the estimates. If so, that's either a deliberate lie of omission or gross negligence in failing to clearly express the meaning of their words and numbers. Those are the only two possibilities.

If they are intended to be accurate predictions, then that indicates that these analysts do not know how to make accurate predictions, because all of the predictions are consistently inaccurate.

Also, your criticism lacks context. We always complain about the constant drumbeat of such things as "Teslas burn!" when they leave out the "... at 1/10 the rate of gas cars". So how about your complaints? How do these misses compare to how analysts do with other stocks? other growth stocks? AAPL?
That I don't know. This took a while to compile but I was only making a restricted claim that that the vast majority of institutional analysts don't publish accurate estimates for TSLA specifically.

That being said, the piss-poor results of thousands of professional analysts shown on TipRanks whose picks perform no better than those of monkeys throwing darts at a list of S&P 500 stocks seems to suggest something about either their skill or honesty.