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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Appreciate Lee's transparency here...

"Sold some shares to buy options" did he say? Leveraged up to cover the drops, but that didn't work? Hmm...

I recall a discussion around here a few years ago about only leveraging 10%, but especially the ongoing "only bet what you can afford to lose." So sounds like Lee bet more than could afford, and then the story backed it up (as already mentioned). And by "afford", I mean mentally not just mathematically. I could lose a lot more and survive, but at what point do we break down and panic sell? That's a different spot.
 
This article talks about the Europeans and the Chinese working really hard and doing all they can to buy the rights to Lithium in South America, and the countries for their part are playing hardball to get their fair share.

But there is no mention of if Tesla also is in the field looking to get rights to mine those minerals.

Is Tesla securing any substantial rights in South America or is it losing the plot to the Chinese and Europeans ?

 
How historically the market typically bottoms after the Fed pivots has been widely discussed, but not always clearly illustrated.

In this interesting chart from 1970 to 2023, top line moving up is S&P500. Bottom line moving down is the Fed interest rate. Green vertical lines are when the Fed pivot from raising the interest rate to lowering them. Red vertical lines are where the market bottomed.

View attachment 902728
source tweet
Not clear on the definition of the Fed pivots, actually reduce the rate (later this year)? And after that time is when the S&P drops (historically)? Well... can't wait for that. Maybe I should sell everything now! /s
 
Is Tesla securing any substantial rights in South America or is it losing the plot to the Chinese and Europeans ?
Tesla is doing some deals with Australian Lithium miners.

Since Elon has been mentioning Lithium, very frequently over the last 3 years, I would expect that they have it covered.

For IRA purposes, Australia has a free trade with the US, and Australian Lithium qualifies under the IRA.

We will find out more on March 1.
 
This article talks about the Europeans and the Chinese working really hard and doing all they can to buy the rights to Lithium in South America, and the countries for their part are playing hardball to get their fair share.

But there is no mention of if Tesla also is in the field looking to get rights to mine those minerals.

Is Tesla securing any substantial rights in South America or is it losing the plot to the Chinese and Europeans ?

Not worried, they are trying to catch up perhaps?

Refinery is the actual constraint, Lithium needs to be super pure. Hence Tesla is building capacity in Texas.

"Musk called lithium prices “crazy expensive” and has repeatedly encouraged entrepreneurs to start refining lithium as a way to ease supply bottlenecks of the key material used in lithium-ion batteries."

 
Tesla also dropped prices in Taiwan:

• Model 3 RWD: 3.4% drop
• Model 3 LR: 6.7% drop
• Model 3 P: 8.1% drop
• Model Y LR: 7.8% drop
• Model Y Performance: 8.5% drop


Tesla has cut it's prices in Korea:

Model 3 RWD : $48,834 (from $52,460)
Model 3 Pf : $61,635 (from $71,893)
Model Y LR : $63,511 (from $69,300)
Model Y Pf : $67,440 (from $77,260)
======================
Model 3 RWD : -7.4%
Model 3 Pf : -16.6%
Model Y LR : -9.1%
Model Y Pf : -14.5%

 
Lots of new Cybertruck photos floating around on the web today. Including this one of a dirty truck full of tires and bird crap on the rear bumper…

Makes me wonder if an NDA was loosened up a bit. Seems like too many new peeks all at once.

1675407872258.png
 
Most Teslas especially my S don’t fit all those tiny roads :)
Very quick list of reasons:
  • I don't really buy the "tiny roads" one. Sure, roads are smaller and quite tiny in many city centers, but that doesn't stop people buying SUVs like in the rest of the world. Parking sensors really helped in this sense.
  • Italians are generally speaking more "savers", compared to Americans for example: this means that a annus horribilis for energy prices like 2022, with the war, the supply chain woes, etc. made Italians much more sensitive about prices. If the narrative is that you don't even save with an electric car, then there is no reason to buy one.
  • this is really it: prices. Italians have seen their salaries shrink while price go up for at least one decade, if not more. Without incentives, an electric car is rarely a good investment. A max of 7500€ incentive was approved in november for people with an ISEE of 30.000€, which means not much. Right now, the incentive goes is 3000€ + 2000€ if you give in another old car. For comparison, when I bought my Zoe two years ago I had 6000€+2000€, not counting the discount from Renault... I had a >10'000€ discount in total, I got very lucky.
  • EVs have a bad name. Nothing new, really, same old misinformation: range anxiety, lack of infrastructure, etc. PHEVs sell a lot more, people think they are better for the environment so stay on the "middle ground".
  • my pet theory: right now, there is a "mismatch". Older people with a property house and a garage could afford the premium price an EV demands now as an investment, and could afford solar, but they don't. Their sons and daughters would afford it, but they can't. The private garage with access to electricity is the biggest piece of the puzzle IMHO.
 
"Sold some shares to buy options" did he say? Leveraged up to cover the drops, but that didn't work? Hmm...

I recall a discussion around here a few years ago about only leveraging 10%, but especially the ongoing "only bet what you can afford to lose." So sounds like Lee bet more than could afford, and then the story backed it up (as already mentioned). And by "afford", I mean mentally not just mathematically. I could lose a lot more and survive, but at what point do we break down and panic sell? That's a different spot.
Long time lurker, finally got something to say. Intro first. Bought my Model S in 2014 when it first arrived in UK, bought TSLA soon after, bought each new model as they arrived and continued investing in TSLA. Now TSLA is my only listed security and I have no managed investments. I have assets: property, cars, aeroplanes and a portfolio of angel investments in small startups.

But this story is not about me, it's about my very good friend who is a super smart ex trader. He started quite sceptical about TSLA and balanced what he heard from me against his sources which were the financial media with their sceptical take. He's a time-the-market guy and struggles to get away from judging only on price. We discuss it alot and as my TSLA investment grew his relentless and loud recomendation was, "Price is crazy high, for God's sake SELL while you're ahead". As Tesla turned profitable and its many brilliant innovations started to tell on the financials his scepticism faded but he couldn't get his mind around the too-high share price.

Until 2022.

I had got greedy on margin and got caned like many here. I started getting margin calls and at $185 I took my medicine and sold down enough to clear margin. In all I lost 50% of my position. As the price continued to fall we discussed getting back in. Over Christmas he was finally ready to take the plunge. But it takes time to get ready to trade - liquidate cash, FX to USD (he has to wait for the right time, did I mention he's a trader?), W8-BEN tax form, etc. By the time he's ready to trade, the price is $120 and he decides to wait because it's shot up from 101 and it will surely come back to give him his open. He's still waiting. And here's the point of this: How do you help your friend stop trying to time the market? Here's my suggestion and I hope it might help others.

Would you be willing to invest a proportion of your stake in a different strategy that you approve of, where YOU set the parameters, and have objective and subjective measures to monitor it going forward.

The investment thesis is: Invest in a High growth, High GM, High operational efficiency stock with sufficient TAM and it will deliver if given enough time. (i.e. the market is a weighing machine in the long term).

If that's an acceptable thesis then next set the objective which I suggest should be somewhere between 5x and 10x share price growth from the starting investment price. Less than 5x is too short term for a company that's growing fast like TSLA and doesn't allow enough time to overwhelm market volatility. More than 10x is too long term and the company might be in a very different phase of its growth. So you should rethink whether the thesis still applies. You set your objective and stick with it.

Now set the parameters for the minimum acceptable performance as you monitor your investment going forward. These are 3 objective and 2 subjective measures to judge whether the investment is on track.

1. High Growth - set your minimum baseline revenue growth. I suggest somewhere between 30% and 40% annual growth, maybe measured over the past 4-6 quarters. Provided it stays above the baseline the investment thesis of high growth still holds.

2. High GM - baseline maybe around 20% - it's got to be profitable growth

3. Operational Margin - baseline maybe around 10% to ensure that overheads are not getting out of control.

4. Short term TAM - this is subjective, it's your judgement about whether the main existing products (today MX and MY, maybe energy in 2024 and cybertruck in 2025) can grow at your target Growth Rate over the next 1-2 years. Is there enough room and appetite in the market to absorb that level of growth.

5. Long term TAM - your subjective judgement of whether the new products coming down the line can support the target Growth Rate over the 3-5 year time frame. This is capturing innovation and the potential for products like Semi, FSD, Robotaxi, Optimus, AGI to support the Growth Rate over the long term. I would think any one of those 5 if successful would sustain the growth rate over at least 5 years. And the probability of at least one being successful is high enough to give a pass mark.

That it. You review these 5 every quarter using the Q10/K10 report and record the results. If everything is green then you consider increasing your investment. If one or more are red, you think carefully about why and whether it's a blip or the start of a trend. If you think it's a blip then monitor closely over the next quarter, if you're less confident then consider reducing your investment.

What you are not allowed to do is to sell because you think the price has got too high. Let it run as long as the fundamentals of your strategy are holding true. By all means track price, PE ratio and all the rest, but let your strategy play out.

I hope this might help some of those waiting on the sidelines for the price to drop back down. It's never easy.

Cheers to the longs.
 
Lots of new Cybertruck photos floating around on the web today. Including this one of a dirty truck full of tires and bird crap on the rear bumper…

Makes me wonder if an NDA was loosened up a bit. Seems like too many new peeks all at once.

View attachment 902791

This one seems to have older mirror design? And aligment of doors is, ahem, not-so-perfect. I don't think it's a beta version..?
 
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Tesla by cutting prices across the world is going for a winner takes all strategy
those who listened to previous earnings calls knew this was bound to happen
reducing vehicle prices and making them more affordable is a deliberate Tesla strategy, not a reaction to decreasing demand
what most do not get is this: Tesla is going to price out everybody including BYD when it comes to quality
within next few years Tesla will be the last man standing
Tesla market cap likely to be in several trillions eventually
my approach to continue being a successful Tesla investor: deliberate benign neglect of my Tesla holdings
not investment advice

That’s the long view. Does the market have the ability to see the pricing strategy that way too? I’m not getting my hopes up.

Worldwide Tesla lowered prices by an average of (my estimate) $7,000 per car. On a volume of 400,000 cars in Q1 that would be $2.8 billion less profit, taking it down from $4 to $1.2 billion. If that’s the final number the market won’t be happy, I’m afraid.

We must hope Tesla is able to make up for part of the lost revenue with lower costs, better utilisation of GF Berlin and Austin, higher storage sales, IRA credits and a more favorable forex.
 
That’s the long view. Does the market have the ability to see the pricing strategy that way too? I’m not getting my hopes up.

Worldwide Tesla lowered prices by an average of (my estimate) $7,000 per car. On a volume of 400,000 cars in Q1 that would be $2.8 billion less profit, taking it down from $4 to $1.2 billion. If that’s the final number the market won’t be happy, I’m afraid.

We must hope Tesla is able to make up for part of the lost revenue with lower costs, better utilisation of GF Berlin and Austin, higher storage sales, IRA credits and a more favorable forex.

On top of this, the Model Y got some of the most significant discounts across Tesla's model line around the world. Considering it's their best seller, the impact of discounts on the Model Y have a more significant impact on Tesla's margins.

However, like @MC3OZ mentioned, it's best to wait for the March 1st investor day. I'm pretty confident that Tesla has some manufacturing cost-cutting innovations to help mitigate the cut in margins quite a bit. I don't think that Tesla would have slahed prices as much as they did if they didn't know that they had significant cost-cutting measures imminently ready to go.
 
OK, then. Carrier is regularly rated #1-3 in the US for heat pumps? Is that like GM leading the electrification of the auto industry?

Hint: Yes, it is. Follow the money. Carrier has huge advertising budgets, of course it's going to place near the top of the heap when they have paid all the proper bribes. There are better heat pumps out there and there's plenty of room for Tesla to leverage their manufacturing expertise, robotics, etc. to become the standard in efficiency, reliability and longevity. One of the challenges is the same one facing their solar tile business, it requires a huge network of skilled installers, and every installation is a little different.
To be honest I didn't realise that Carrier was even active in the residential ASHP segment. It certainly isn't in Europe, unless it is doing that under other brand names, but is it really active in USA in domestic ? In Europe it tends to focus on commercial & industrial segments.

A few questions if I may so as to understand to what extent there is a real market opportunity here :

- What are the typical CoP for Carrier domestic in USA ?

- By comparison in UK/EU a good domestic ASHP will have a CoP of 3.2 or better. For example the Mistsubishi Ecodan which is inverter drive with R32 that we have has an MCS CoP of 3.26 if using 55C wet loop, or 4.33 if using 35C. Personally we have ours set to 45C and seem to exceed 3+ in normal winter usage (including below freezing, i.e. <0C).

Ecodan PUZ-HWM140VHA(-BS) Product Information Sheet - Document Library - Mitsubishi Electric

- And the big question : do we have any insight into the CoP available from the Tesla heat pumps in their vehicles and how that might translate to a CoP in a domestic setting ?
 
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Lots of new Cybertruck photos floating around on the web today. Including this one of a dirty truck full of tires and bird crap on the rear bumper…

Makes me wonder if an NDA was loosened up a bit. Seems like too many new peeks all at once.

View attachment 902791

1675407872258-png.902791


What is up with that license plate? The text says TSLA but it is all black. Do black license plates exist in the US? Or is it a place holder?

If a beta prototype with a dummy license I would think Tesla would use TESLA or CYBERTRUCK and not TSLA?

One of us could put TSLA on the license plate if we bought a Cybertruck - but none has been sold yet.

Can some of my American friends add some context here?
 
1675407872258-png.902791


What is up with that license plate? The text says TSLA but it is all black. Do black license plates exist in the US? Or is it a place holder?

If a beta prototype with a dummy license I would think Tesla would use TESLA or CYBERTRUCK and not TSLA?

One of us could put TSLA on the license plate if we bought a Cybertruck - but none has been sold yet.

Can some of my American friends add some context here?
I think this is just a placeholder.
I thought I've seen a CT with CBRTRCK as well.

In Belgium we can get personalised licence plates for € 1000.
Like this:

Fm2JNeKXoAEf-iS
 
Twitter has massive depth but massive signal to noise ratio. This forum has (arguably) tighter focus but lacks the depth Twitter has.

This thread is “better” than Twitter so long as the signal to noise ratio is better here. If the signal to noise ratio approaches that on Twitter, the forum loses it’s edge.
I assume you mean mean Twitter has a massive noise to signal ratio, right ;)?
(High signal to noise means signal is stronger than noise)
 
The only possible fly in the ointment is a possible recession.
There is an osborning effect that was introduced by lowering price. Why buy now when you will almost certainly get a lower price in 6 months as volume ramps and recession lingers on?

Using the price cutting lever introduced a possible deflationary kind of thinking or a “just wait” problem. I think the 1.8m forecast number reflected this risk.

FSD could be a mitigation for some customers.
 
Lots of new Cybertruck photos floating around on the web today. Including this one of a dirty truck full of tires and bird crap on the rear bumper…

Makes me wonder if an NDA was loosened up a bit. Seems like too many new peeks all at once.

View attachment 902791
I so want to think that this is a cool looking car but I just can't. Looks like a big cardboard box car to me. Luckily, enough buyers feel the opposite.