Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Wiki Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
10,587
30,690
Seattle, WA
BS.. There is nothing magical in the water in silicon valley that means them better programmers. Although I have met more than my share who think they are Superior because of where they live.
Nothing to do with water. Its where a lot of programmers end up - because there are a lot of software jobs in SV.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: Maitri982

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
16,465
38,458
Oregon
Not sure if this has been posted. Tesla got another 5B RMB (about $700m) loan from China Merchants Bank according to SEC filing.

Well technically it isn't a loan, it is a line of credit to be used to cover vehicles in transit from Fremont to China. It just allows them to get "paid" before the cars are actually delivered. (Or at least that is how I am reading it.)
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
10,587
30,690
Seattle, WA
I'd like to add to this, if I may. Poland has had tremendous engineering potential for decades. Polish programmers are ranked 3rd in the world. Indeed, the lack of auto industry except FIAT factory in Tychy might be a plus or negative here. In any case, 50+ years of Soviet occupation did not help overall, but Poland has grown out of this swiftly in past 25 years. My vote goes there.

More Why Polish Developers Are One Of The Best In The World
Screen-Shot-2016-08-23-at-8.42.39-AM.png
Just note that - this is not by any stretch of imagination a scientific ranking. It is only a ranking of developers who participate in the HackerRank site challenges. It is like a poll CNN or Fox runs. Don't expect the results to look anything like a well designed public poll.

Anyway, interesting that "iron curtain" countries apparently scored best (4 of top 5). Tells something about those countries / scoring methodology ;)

Having interacted with developers from a lot of countries - I can confidently say the variability within a country is more than the variability across country averages.
 

abasile

TSLA shareholder
Supporting Member
Oct 21, 2012
1,658
3,569
San Bernardino Mountains, California
Yes, the enviro-friendliness of EV's keeps improving in lockstep with the electrical grid steadily moving to cleaner sources of generation. These improvements are completely separate and in addition to improved technologies that also reduce the carbon footprint (as batteries become more efficient and reduce reliance on rare earth metals and other ingredients with a high environmental footprint). 5 years is an eternity when looking at the rate of EV technological improvements and the carbon footprint of the lifecycle of an EV.

Meanwhile, gas burners just keep burning more and more oil as rings and valve seal sub-optimally and O2 sensors and air mass meters calibration drifts and becomes less accurate with time. Catalytic converters become less efficient, small exhaust leaks develop, etc, etc, etc.

Gas burning cars are rolling environmental disasters compared to EV's.
I would love to see Tesla release an up-to-date estimate of the GHG (greenhouse gas) footprint associated with the production of each vehicle it sells, with a direct comparison to the emissions associated with driving semi-comparable gasoline vehicles, say, 50,000 miles. They could also show the GHG emissions associated with driving a Tesla the same distance, depending on location and use of rooftop solar.

Of course, having a slick presentation of this data on tesla.com would be best. The goal would be to help market the cars to environmentally-minded people. Recently, I gave a talk on EVs to a local environmental group and I sort of regret that I didn't provide more crisp details as to just how environmentally superior Teslas are. (The talk went well overall, thankfully, and I got lots of interest and questions.) So many people make bad assumptions about how "terrible" battery manufacturing supposedly is, and how "wasteful" it might be to produce a new EV when their existing gasoline car still works fine.
 

MC3OZ

Active Member
Jul 25, 2019
2,510
13,978
QLD Australia
I think a new at-cost battery swap (e.g. to a modern 100kWh pack) or even purchase of a whole new Tesla at-cost, would be a fair compensation. They certainly have the production capacity. Otherwise, sure, maybe some store credit / Supercharging / partial cash compensation for the range loss** / etc would be fair.

** - So if a new S/X pack is $20k (pure guesstimate; 3 LR packs are ~$10k), and you wanted to compensate for 10% range loss, that would be $2k... .. so maybe let people choose between an at-cost pack replacement, $2k cash, or $3k store/supercharging credits... something like that)

I know the warranty doesn't guarantee a minimum range. But come on... this is about reputation, to your early adopters. Don't break the bank and have to increase warranty reserves, and make clear that you're not establishing a precident, but... do something. Show that you care. Just my take.

That said, lawsuits and investigations sure make it hard for them to, because now, doing anything would seem like an admission that they did something wrong.

I think this has to be a 100 kWh pack at cost with free install, that is the logical solution, with Tesla keeping the old pack, which may have some use, even if only for recycling..

This can be limited to packs with a defined loss of range in a particular time-frame... say before September 2019 ... no one can abuse their pack to try to get an upgrade. and the number of affected customers is fixed...

As to what the hold up could be....perhaps they are trying to more accurately pinpoint which packs are really affected... perhaps some packs are limited now as a precaution, and some or all of that reduced capacity can be returned, when Tesla can be sure it is safe to do so... but why mess around? It is better to resolve the issue ASAP.

EDIT:: On reflection, perhaps it is not that easy to drop a newer pack into these older cars..
 
Last edited:

Thekiwi

Active Member
Mar 31, 2016
1,635
15,226
Wellington
Putting aside SolarCity and Energy and only focusing on Tesla Autos, Tesla can only cut in 2 areas: R&D and SG&A.
R&D is about $1.2B a year and SG&A is $2.3B per year.
It's difficult to cut SG&A as you grow due to the need for service centers, back office administration, etc. Cuts in R&D. although discretionary, mortgages the future (what do you cut? Autonomous Driving, Semi, Pick Up, 1M mile Battery, etc/)

The best way to get profitable is to increase the margins on the car sold and sell more of them to cover fixed costs in SG&A. They are aiming to grow Gross Margin Dollars faster than growth in R&D & SG&A dollars. This will come faster than people think, Once Model Y is into it's 2nd Qtr of deliveries, I believe Tesla becomes profitable each quarter. Higher pricing for FSD will also add to profitability and that's icing on the cake.

Probably not likely, but one other way to bring Tesla much closer to profitability is a massive share issuance that they then use to eliminate all outstanding debt. While it means a large share dilution, it would mean no longer having a large interest cost each quarter.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: Esme Es Mejor

StealthP3D

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2018
9,919
81,634
Maple Falls, WA
So many people make bad assumptions about how "terrible" battery manufacturing supposedly is, and how "wasteful" it might be to produce a new EV when their existing gasoline car still works fine.

I would ask them to hook a gas mask up to their car's exhaust for 5 minutes and then see if they could still tell me it was "working fine". /s Because "working as designed" and "working fine" are two completely different things.
 
Last edited:

AZRI11

Member
Sep 2, 2016
956
6,690
Rhode Island/Azores
Nice. Does she have an EV?
No. Tells me that she would only purchase one if it were made by Apple. Also, Apple is a huge customer (the watch uses their dispensers during manufacturing) another tidbit, their contacts with Apple are always changing. They (apple) seem to have a large turnover with middle managers at the manufacturing level. CNBC should be reporting that, don't you think ;)
 

Artful Dodger

"Ducimus, lit"
Aug 9, 2018
10,043
133,308
Canada
Elon says the world needs 100 Gigafactories.

He said that back when production capacity at Nevada GF was expected to top out at 35 GWh.
He said the number was more than 10, less than 100. And that was before the currently known and planned optimizations. There's a reason there are no shovels in the dirt at GF1 Sparks right now: Tesla can continue to expand bty production there without increasing the building's footprint.
 

Artful Dodger

"Ducimus, lit"
Aug 9, 2018
10,043
133,308
Canada
Not sure if this has been posted. Tesla got another 5B RMB (about $700m) loan from China Merchants Bank according to SEC filing.
From the SEC filing:

"On September 26, 2019, Tesla Automobile (Beijing) Co., Ltd. (“Tesla Beijing”), a subsidiary of Tesla, Inc. (“Tesla”), entered into a Facility Agreement and a related Statement Letter (together, the “China In-Transit Financing Facility”) with China Merchants Bank Co., Ltd., Beijing Branch (“CMB”) for an unsecured 12-month revolving facility of up to RMB 5.0 billion to finance vehicles in-transit to China."​

So Tesla is accessing more revolving (90 day) loan money to deliver buckets full of Chinese-made Models 3. That's roughly enough money to finance 14K Model 3s at a time.

Further, if Tesla can simple maintain its existing 18 day's of inventory benchmark within its operations in China, then the above is also a big enough revolving loan for approx. 270K cars per year. So that syncs up well with initial production targets for GF3 Phase 1 of 5K/wk or 250K/yr achieved sometime in 2020.

I think I just heard the mike drop. ;)

Cheers!
 
Last edited:

Fact Checking

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2018
7,517
120,763
Vienna
Well technically it isn't a loan, it is a line of credit to be used to cover vehicles in transit from Fremont to China. It just allows them to get "paid" before the cars are actually delivered. (Or at least that is how I am reading it.)

I believe these kinds of credit lines are typically used to pay suppliers for cost of goods, before customers pay. Also, since it's RMB denominated, I'd rather think it's GF3 related, to pay Chinese suppliers in RMB. It's much cheaper to finance in-transit GF3 vehicles this way than to exchange dollars to RMB and then back.

70% of the 328k¥ base price is 230k¥, so the
5 billion RMB credit line would allow the financing of up to 21,000 Model 3's in transit. That's more than enough - at 3k/week that's 7 weeks of GF3 production plus any payables delay.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: wipster

Fact Checking

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2018
7,517
120,763
Vienna
From the SEC filing:

"On September 26, 2019, Tesla Automobile (Beijing) Co., Ltd. (“Tesla Beijing”), a subsidiary of Tesla, Inc. (“Tesla”), entered into a Facility Agreement and a related Statement Letter (together, the “China In-Transit Financing Facility”) with China Merchants Bank Co., Ltd., Beijing Branch (“CMB”) for an unsecured 12-month revolving facility of up to RMB 5.0 billion to finance vehicles in-transit to China."​

So Tesla is accessing more revolving (90 day) loan money to deliver buckets full of Chinese-made Models 3. That's roughly enough money to finance 14K Model 3s at a time.

Further, if Tesla can simple maintain its existing 18 day's of inventory benchmark within its operations in China, then the above is also a big enough revolving loan for approx. 270K cars per year. So that syncs up will with initial production targets for GF3 Phase 1 at 5K/wk or 250K/yr achieved sometime in 2020.

I think I just heard the mike drop. ;)

Cheers!

CoGs loans are usually for about ~70% of the vehicle price (230k¥) - so it's about ~21,000 vehicles.

Plus Tesla gets about 60 days of payables delay for Fremont production. If they get similar terms from Chinese suppliers then this credit line should be more than enough to scale up GF3 quickly.
 

Singer3000

Member
Apr 26, 2018
756
5,652
Singapore
I would love to see Tesla release an up-to-date estimate of the GHG (greenhouse gas) footprint associated with the production of each vehicle it sells, with a direct comparison to the emissions associated with driving semi-comparable gasoline vehicles, say, 50,000 miles. They could also show the GHG emissions associated with driving a Tesla the same distance, depending on location and use of rooftop solar.

Of course, having a slick presentation of this data on tesla.com would be best. The goal would be to help market the cars to environmentally-minded people. Recently, I gave a talk on EVs to a local environmental group and I sort of regret that I didn't provide more crisp details as to just how environmentally superior Teslas are. (The talk went well overall, thankfully, and I got lots of interest and questions.) So many people make bad assumptions about how "terrible" battery manufacturing supposedly is, and how "wasteful" it might be to produce a new EV when their existing gasoline car still works fine.
The Singapore government has quite famously been saying that EVs are overall worse for the environment than ICE, when you include construction / battery and hence there is close to zero penetration here (you see a few BYD taxis). Very smart and wealthy Singaporeans believe what the government says. I really wish there was a dedicated unit at Tesla to counter bad info, not just in the media but among policy makers around the world. It’s not just about the stock price...
 

Fact Checking

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2018
7,517
120,763
Vienna
BS.. There is nothing magical in the water in silicon valley that means them better programmers. Although I have met more than my share who think they are Superior because of where they live.

Nothing to do with water. Its where a lot of programmers end up - because there are a lot of software jobs in SV.

Silicon Valley is to programmers and other high-tech specialists what Wall Street is to the financial industry or Germany is to the automotive industry - the global center of the industry, the pinnacle of a career.

Silicon Valley also has the additional allure of being the incubator of many successful high-tech startups, with risk-happy venture capital living nearby. Disruption and growth is much easier in the software space due to much lower capital costs and very high profit margins: the "only" serious capital a software startup needs is good programmers, so the best ones are paid very, very well.

Somewhat ironically the only place that can compete with Silicon Valley software developer salaries is Wall Street - but even Wall Street cannot compete with the Silicon Valley IPO lottery for exceptional programmers.

That's what is in the water of SV: money and opportunity, and all year around good weather doesn't hurt either. :D
 
Last edited:

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top