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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

Prunesquallor

His cardinal virtue? An undamaged brain.
Dec 19, 2018
2,786
28,227
Houston/Galveston
Zero deaths in manufacturing. Almost all 70% were nursing homes. Most of those under 60 were from our poor Hispanic community. Over 40 elder care residents and one receptionist died in a home 2 miles from my front door.
Well, you are the canary in the coal mine. Or rather, the control. That data will be valuable when the numbers are finally crunched. Won't it be interesting if the lockdown (and the resultant economic chaos) really did not prove to have a major benefit?
 

MC3OZ

Active Member
Jul 25, 2019
2,033
10,906
QLD Australia
Well, as the law exists today, I think it does. In fact, I think it would prevent Texans from buying any Tesla.

The law as it exists now says that in Texas, new vehicles can only be sold through independently-owned dealerships. It doesn't matter where the car is manufactured. Tesla currently gets around this because a sale online is technically a sale from California, even if the car is sitting in inventory in Texas. But if HQ moves to Texas, then I guess Tesla is a Texas company, so an online sale would be a sale in Texas and thus illegal (unless an independent dealership was involved).

So it appears to me, if HQ moves to Texas, the law has to change. Anybody read this differently?

I think you have got a good point here.

In terms of the nominal HQ, Nevada might be a better bet.

Engineering, software and production could be split between California, Nevada and Texas.
 

Artful Dodger

"Ducimus, lit"
Aug 9, 2018
8,266
101,030
Canada
Do you mean a couple of ships?
People also ask
What is a car carrier ship?
RoRo or Roll on Roll off ship is a special type of vessel which is used for the transportation of automobile vehicles. Also known as car carriers, these vessels have special inclines (ramps) constructed so as to make the loading and the unlading of vehicles and cargo easier and more convenient.Oct 9, 2019
 
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Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,265
19,531
San Diego
As much as I dislike Trump, I will say that I'm also coming to see how he builds and wields power. What makes all this work is how stupid most people are, even well-educated, thoughtful government administrators. People like Trump, and even more so, like Elon, can manipulate them like puppets. It takes a couple of weeks and it makes both Trump and Musk look a bit foolish to people who don't understand their end-game, but they don't care as long as it affects the change they want.

Yes, I've believed this for quite a while about Trump. He is always persuading. I too see a lot of similarities in how Elon and Trump operate when it comes to mass communications and persuasion. It's interesting that they both chose Twitter as their main mass communication medium. I suspect its because they use it as a way to persuade journalists and other other opinion writers, but I don't really know.

If Fremont is not open and churning out cars by the bucketload in two weeks (two weeks before the latest Bay Area lock-down ends), I'll eat my words. Trust me, Elon knows EXACTLY what he's doing and he's a master at it. Watch and see.

OK, I am seriously impressed because you wrote this about two weeks ago.
 

PeterJA

Member
Sep 26, 2013
844
7,286
San Diego
...Lastly, in regards to the SP, I'd be more convinced of this valuation if we'd come here along a different path. Going from ~$350 in December, to ~$920 in Feb, right back down to $360 in March, and now back up to ~$800, doesn't give me much confidence that we are fairly valued now (in the midst of a pandemic, I might add). Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume $350 - $450 is over sold and $800 - $900 is overbought? Common sense would suggest a fair valuation between the extremes. And wouldn't it be reasonable to be discussing risks of a pullback as we approach ATH? Just as it would be reasonable to discuss bullish factors at $350? I don't find it prudent as an investor to dream of multi-thousand price targets while at the top and fear an improbable bankruptcy at the bottom...

This sounds like some kind of rudimentary technical analysis: Common sense would suggest a fair valuation between the extremes... What goes up must come down... No it doesn't, as you can see from the chart of any successful growth stock.

TSLA's fair valuation changes every time Tesla makes progress. This happens frequently. Why pick $350 as your lower extreme, rather than $180 or $30? Yes, $350 was only two months ago, but a lot has happened since then. Giga Shanghai is shooting up like Chinese bamboo, and Giga Berlin is graded and building roads, and Autopilot recognizes traffic signals. If Battery Day reveals a detailed plan for world domination, as informed folks suspect, then fair valuation will be nowhere near the midpoint of a range from months ago. With Tesla, you have to keep up.
 

StealthP3D

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2018
8,629
63,244
Maple Falls, WA
Lastly, in regards to the SP, I'd be more convinced of this valuation if we'd come here along a different path. Going from ~$350 in December, to ~$920 in Feb, right back down to $360 in March, and now back up to ~$800, doesn't give me much confidence that we are fairly valued now (in the midst of a pandemic, I might add). Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume $350 - $450 is over sold and $800 - $900 is overbought? Common sense would suggest a fair valuation between the extremes. And wouldn't it be reasonable to be discussing risks of a pullback as we approach ATH? Just as it would be reasonable to discuss bullish factors at $350? I don't find it prudent as an investor to dream of multi-thousand price targets while at the top and fear an improbable bankruptcy at the bottom...

I'm going to reply specifically to this last paragraph of your long and well-written post right now and maybe, in the future I will have the time and feel like addressing some of your more specific concerns. But I might not because most of them are primarily relevant to stock traders, not long-term stock investors.

As you confirm in the first sentence, much of your lack of confidence in TSLA's valuation stems from how quickly we got to where we are today. And, we are in the midst of a pandemic no less! The reason neither of these things spells overvaluation to me stems from two things:

1) I take a long-term view. High growth companies can be over-valued for years on end while continuing to appreciate rapidly. I missed AMZN because of this and I STILL don't own any. Shame on me! While Tesla is a different company in a different market situation, please explain how it is any different with regard to the expected growth and revenue expansion. MSFT in the early days was like this (and it's STILL growing like gang-busters!). I'm glad I "bit the bullet" and bought a bunch of it when almost every Wall Street analyst claimed it was a great company but it was too "over-valued" to seriously consider. I rode that big beautiful wave for years without selling a single share (added to my position when I could, fortunately). That stock grew and split (I forget how many times) for years before I sold it for a better opportunity in 1998. If you want to ride the wave you first have to catch the wave. Great stocks are almost always over-valued for most of their high growth period (and generally for some time after their high growth period slows down). I've avoided "value stocks" for my entire investing career (and my brokerage account is glad I did). Value stocks are "cheap" for the same reason very affordable housing is "cheap". Because no one will buy it if it costs more! Desirable things always cost more. And the more desirable they are, the bigger the premium you're going to pay. And with stocks, the potential for exceptional growth is a prime driver of desirability.

To understand just how important growth rate is, it's necessary to understand how valuable every 1% of additional growth or price appreciation each year is to your long-term investment performance, something I won't get into here. Except to say the answer may shock you. Skilled investors know this. Will TSLA have its ups and downs? Of course, but it won't be like it was in the days before they had cemented their reputation because the market now sees the potential and the likelihood of it in a way it never did before (and a pandemic doesn't change that fact, it strengthens it).

I know you put a lot of time and effort into your production and delivery estimates and I imagine it's really disheartening to see the market does not respond in lockstep to what you uncover and publish. But Tesla is growing beyond the stage of being strictly tied to next quarters numbers, especially during a pandemic. Because forward-thinking investors know the world continues to turn and people will go back to work, have sex and make babies. Birthday parties will happen again, the world continues. So when you are paying a premium upfront to buy into the potential for high growth, a temporary impact does not cause you to fine-tune future growth projections in the same way that a "normal" quarter would. So it will have a much smaller impact on the valuation. Investors are largely looking beyond Q2 for that reason. Granted, if the recovery drags on and Tesla is not recovering as fast as investors expect, that will become reflected more visibly in the share price. But that raises the question "What are we using as a baseline here for an appropriate valuation to a company like Tesla?". And that leads to my second comment.

2) How quickly we got to today's valuation. Being uncomfortable with the current valuation in May 2020 due to the fact that it was only $350 in December 2019 and the fact that it dropped to $360 in March basically assumes it might have been correctly valued in December or in March. But in point #1 I already discussed the reasons why a high growth stock is worth a lot more than a stock with a more normal growth rate. And I really encourage those who not aware of how much every percent of annual growth matters to your compounded returns over time to spend the time to crunch the numbers over a decade or more with different assumed annual growth rates. This stuff matters more than most investors can even imagine!

My question to you is why would you assume Tesla was correctly valued recently at $350-$360 (but not now). Couldn't it be the other way around? That the market didn't understand Tesla's likely annual growth rate and profitability in December and it didn't understand how COVID-19 was going to impact the big OEMs in a negative and very challenging manner? Do you understand the effects of this impact and how it will benefit Tesla? The market appears to be getting it finally. Previously, the market was worried about the competition. Not only was that not a likely problem before COVID-19 but now it is even less likely. Why do you assume the market must have understood Tesla then, but not now? Companies tend to only appreciate that fast when the market didn't understand the potential until certain events made that potential apparent. In Tesla's case, the market had been told for years that Tesla had nothing special, they weren't efficient at making cars, the competition would eat them up, nobody wants electric cars, EV's are too expensive to make a profit on, etc, etc, etc. The market was in a discovery phase with respect to TSLA share price when COVID-19 reared its head. We don't know how much discovery there was yet to manifest itself in the share price when COVID-19 entered the scene.

Even though I expect the TSLA share price to take a breather, perhaps as COVID-19 lingers longer than expected, I'm not selling because trying to time the market moves is a real crapshoot. The money is in catching the big wave and riding it. If you're not on it, you can't ride it. Tesla is not fake, it's not hype, there is a strong probability it will grow into a very profitable company and continue its exceptional growth rate. That growth rate is key and it's not about next quarter, it's about the next several years. I want to be on the wave that I'm on, not worrying about whether it will give up 30% of its value in the next few months. And there is a lot of other investment income that's thinking the same thing, judging by how quickly it recovered from it's March low.

I appreciate the numbers you work so hard on providing but I think you might be a little too close to the situation to fully judge their meaning and importance relative to the share price. They definitely mattered more when bankruptcy was a more pressing concern. The stock is simply not going to move in lockstep with monthly or quarterly production and deliveries except in the very broad sense that they can help inform about likely production and (especially) profits 5 or 10 years out. They are one very small part of the valuation and primarily for their predictive ability.

I wish I could wrap this up in a manner that had more closure but just remember that valuation is not a simple thing unless you have a low-growth, low margin company with predictable and repeatable sales and slow but steady growth. Valuation of a high-growth company with the potential for high margins does not respond well to formulas because formulas need assumptions and small changes in assumptions create huge changes in future value due to the effects of compounding. NEVER under-estimate the power of compounding - it's very non-intuitive.
 
Last edited:

Prunesquallor

His cardinal virtue? An undamaged brain.
Dec 19, 2018
2,786
28,227
Houston/Galveston
BTW I meant 12-14 weeks total shutdown, i.e., reopen late June to early July.

edit: I truly hope this does not age well

Yum. Tasty.

7AE5FFA2-1E98-4819-8308-F01936FD99AE.jpeg
 

StarFoxisDown!

Active Member
Jan 23, 2019
2,182
15,527
Seattle
This sounds like some kind of rudimentary technical analysis: Common sense would suggest a fair valuation between the extremes... What goes up must come down... No it doesn't, as you can see from the chart of any successful growth stock.

TSLA's fair valuation changes every time Tesla makes progress. This happens frequently. Why pick $350 as your lower extreme, rather than $180 or $30? Yes, $350 was only two months ago, but a lot has happened since then. Giga Shanghai is shooting up like Chinese bamboo, and Giga Berlin is graded and building roads, and Autopilot recognizes traffic signals. If Battery Day reveals a detailed plan for world domination, as informed folks suspect, then fair valuation will be nowhere near the midpoint of a range from months ago. With Tesla, you have to keep up.

I'll never get that sort of argument or thought process. Tesla was range bound for 5 years. Tesla was severely undervalued after Q3 earnings and was very undervalued after Q4 earnings. The stock being at 350 2-3 months ago has no bearing on the stock today. People that pick out such arbitrary things such as a stock moved up "X" amount over "X" amount of time while ignoring the stock action before their given period of "evaluation " always miss out on the gains.

Besides, last time I checked Tesla is a rapidly growing company.....usually the stock tends to follow o_O
 

troym

Member
Apr 14, 2019
65
225
Calgary
This sounds like some kind of rudimentary technical analysis: Common sense would suggest a fair valuation between the extremes... What goes up must come down... No it doesn't, as you can see from the chart of any successful growth stock.

TSLA's fair valuation changes every time Tesla makes progress. This happens frequently. Why pick $350 as your lower extreme, rather than $180 or $30? Yes, $350 was only two months ago, but a lot has happened since then. Giga Shanghai is shooting up like Chinese bamboo, and Giga Berlin is graded and building roads, and Autopilot recognizes traffic signals. If Battery Day reveals a detailed plan for world domination, as informed folks suspect, then fair valuation will be nowhere near the midpoint of a range from months ago. With Tesla, you have to keep up.

You need to price in a fair bit of bankruptcy risk to get SP down below the $200's, which I don't see as a concern. Given your arguments, I assume you feel Tesla is fairly priced/undervalued at its current $150B market cap? And you justify it with qualitative arguments like "a detailed plan for world domination"? I'd be happy to see the valuation model you've formed your opinion on, otherwise your rudimentary analysis...what goes up must keep going up...seems no less flawed than mine...

If you care to provide anything of substance, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on the near-term risks I laid out in my original post and why they don't threaten a drop over the summer.
 
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hobbes

Active Member
Feb 11, 2013
2,598
12,705
Germany
Coronavirus Update: Defiant Musk Confirms Tesla Fremont Plant Reopening; Gov. Newsom Unaware

Seems they might already have started production over the weekend:

Verve, quoting two unnamed workers, said production had actually restarted on a limited basis over the weekend and around 200 Model Y and Model 3 vehicles had rolled off the assembly line.

A spokesman for the Alameda County Public Health Department issued a statement said authorities were “addressing this matter using the same phased approach we use for other businesses which have violated the [health order] in the past, and we hope Tesla will likewise comply without further enforcement measures.”

When asked if he knew that the plant has reopened and had he had discussions with Musk, Newsom replied:

“I can’t attest to the fact the he has reopened today,” the governor said. “I’m not aware of the details of that. Yes, we did have a conversation a number of days ago. We made the modification. He wanted clarification on the state modification where we did move forward with the manufacturing logistics and retail augmentations.”
 

johnm6875

Member
Apr 13, 2016
48
321
Auburn
Unfortunately, I doubt anyone will arrest him. All we can do is hope. :)

If he does get arrested, it will not put it back in Newsom's court because he is in the executive branch of state government. An arrest would put it squarely in the judicial branch.
Prosecutors work for the Executive Branch. You may have recently read some articles about a General Michael Flynn that illustrate my point.
 

EV forever

Supporting Member
Apr 23, 2016
718
5,355
Irvine, CA
Tesla did cash the PTO out.



That isn't what cashing out PTO means. That wouldn't be cashing anything out, that would be Tesla revoking/eliminating the PTO.

Cashing out PTO means paying the employees for the PTO...

Excuse me, but you are taking my words out of context and changing the meaning by only taking a portion of what I said. If you are going to quote me, use the full quote please!

We are both saying the same thing - Tesla paid the employees the money for the PTO. Not once was I suggesting that Tesla kept that money or eliminated the PTO.

Did you read the article in the link? It was this FUD article the way it is written that suggests that Tesla did something wrong.

Tesla has already started making cars again at its California factory


My point is
The way the original article is written makes it sound like Tesla cashed out employee PTO - in other words Tesla got the money that was employee PTO money. That is categorically false.

Tesla paid the PTO money to the employees - in other words, the employees received the money for their PTO. See the original article that I was responding to - it states - "Many now can’t take paid leave because Tesla cashed it out" but fails to add that Tesla paid that PTO money to the employees!!!
 

troym

Member
Apr 14, 2019
65
225
Calgary
I'm going to reply specifically to this last paragraph of your long and well-written post right now and maybe, in the future I will have the time and feel like addressing some of your more specific concerns. But I might not because most of them are primarily relevant to stock traders, not long-term stock investors.

As you confirm in the first sentence, much of your lack of confidence in TSLA's valuation stems from how quickly we got to where we are today. And, we are in the midst of a pandemic no less! The reason neither of these things spells overvaluation to me stems from two things:

1) I take a long-term view. High growth companies can be over-valued for years on end while continuing to appreciate rapidly. I missed AMZN because of this and I STILL don't own any. Shame on me! While Tesla is a different company in a different market situation, please explain how it is any different with regard to the expected growth and revenue expansion. MSFT in the early days was like this (and it's STILL growing like gang-busters!). I'm glad I "bit the bullet" and bought a bunch of it when almost every Wall Street analyst claimed it was a great company but it was too "over-valued" to seriously consider. I rode that big beautiful wave for years without selling a single share (added to my position when I could, fortunately). That stock grew and split (I forget how many times) for years before I sold it for a better opportunity in 1998. If you want to ride the wave you first have to catch the wave. Great stocks are almost always over-valued for most of their high growth period (and generally for some time after their high growth period slows down). I've avoided "value stocks" for my entire investing career (and my brokerage account is glad I did). Value stocks are "cheap" for the same reason very affordable housing is "cheap". Because no one will buy it if it costs more! Desirable things always cost more. And the more desirable they are, the bigger the premium you're going to pay. And with stocks, the potential for exceptional growth is a prime driver of desirability.

To understand just how important growth rate is, it's necessary to understand how valuable every 1% of additional growth or price appreciation each year is to your long-term investment performance, something I won't get into here. Except to say the answer may shock you. Skilled investors know this. Will TSLA have its ups and downs? Of course, but it won't be like it was in the days before they had cemented their reputation because the market now sees the potential and the likelihood of it in a way it never did before (and a pandemic doesn't change that fact, it strengthens it).

I know you put a lot of time and effort into your production and delivery estimates and I imagine it's really disheartening to see the market does not respond in lockstep to what you uncover and publish. But Tesla is growing beyond the stage of being strictly tied to next quarters numbers, especially during a pandemic. Because forward-thinking investors know the world continues to turn and people will go back to work, have sex and make babies. Birthday parties will happen again, the world continues. So when you are paying a premium upfront to buy into the potential for high growth, a temporary impact does not cause you to fine-tune future growth projections in the same way that a "normal" quarter would. So it will have a much smaller impact on the valuation. Investors are largely looking beyond Q2 for that reason. Granted, if the recovery drags on and Tesla is not recovering as fast as investors expect, that will become reflected more visibly in the share price. But that raises the question "What are we using as a baseline here for an appropriate valuation to a company like Tesla?". And that leads to my second comment.

2) How quickly we got to today's valuation. Being uncomfortable with the current valuation in May 2020 due to the fact that it was only $350 in December 2019 and the fact that it dropped to $360 in March basically assumes it might have been correctly valued in December or in March. But in point #1 I already discussed the reasons why a high growth stock is worth a lot more than a stock with a more normal growth rate. And I really encourage those who not aware of how much every percent of annual growth matters to your compounded returns over time to spend the time to crunch the numbers over a decade or more with different assumed annual growth rates. This stuff matters more than most investors can even imagine!

My question to you is why would you assume Tesla was correctly valued recently at $350-$360 (but not now). Couldn't it be the other way around? That the market didn't understand Tesla's likely annual growth rate and profitability in December and it didn't understand how COVID-19 was going to impact the big OEMs in a negative and very challenging manner? Do you understand the effects of this impact and how it will benefit Tesla? The market appears to be getting it finally. Previously, the market was worried about the competition. Not only was that not a likely problem before COVID-19 but now it is even less likely. Why do you assume the market must have understood Tesla then, but not now? Companies tend to only appreciate that fast when the market didn't understand the potential until certain events made that potential apparent. In Tesla's case, the market had been told for years that Tesla had nothing special, they weren't efficient at making cars, the competition would eat them up, nobody wants electric cars, EV's are too expensive to make a profit on, etc, etc, etc. The market was in a discovery phase with respect to TSLA share price when COVID-19 reared its head. We don't know how much discovery there was yet to manifest itself in the share price when COVID-19 entered the scene.

Even though I expect the TSLA share price to take a breather, perhaps as COVID-19 lingers longer than expected, I'm not selling because trying to time the market moves is a real crapshoot. The money is in catching the big wave and riding it. If you're not on it, you can't ride it. Tesla is not fake, it's not hype, there is a strong probability it will grow into a very profitable company and continue its exceptional growth rate. That growth rate is key and it's not about next quarter, it's about the next several years. I want to be on the wave that I'm on, not worrying about whether it will give up 30% of its value in the next few months. And there is a lot of other investment income that's thinking the same thing, judging by how quickly it recovered from it's March low.

I appreciate the numbers you work so hard on providing but I think you might be a little too close to the situation to fully judge their meaning and importance relative to the share price. They definitely mattered more when bankruptcy was a more pressing concern. The stock is simply not going to move in lockstep with monthly or quarterly production and deliveries except in the very broad sense that they can help inform about likely production and (especially) profits 5 or 10 years out. They are one very small part of the valuation and primarily for their predictive ability.

I wish I could wrap this up in a manner that had more closure but just remember that valuation is not a simple thing unless you have a low-growth, low margin company with predictable and repeatable sales and slow but steady growth. Valuation of a high-growth company with the potential for high margins does not respond well to formulas because formulas need assumptions and small changes in assumptions create huge changes in future value due to the effects of compounding. NEVER under-estimate the power of compounding - it's very non-intuitive.


I appreciate your taking the time to write out a thoughtful response.

As for prod and delivery numbers, I believe you got the wrong Troy (and I don't think he'd want to be mistaken for me...haha).
"High growth companies can be over-valued for years on end while continuing to appreciate rapidly." This is a very fair point.
So yes, it seems Tesla, and most others, will get a pass on Q2.
I didn't say they were fairly valued with sp at $350. I said they were likely oversold then.
As for the other OEMs and the looming competition that never comes, I'll admit, I have trouble accepting the argument that investors just now recognize Tesla's multi-year lead and that's what is supporting the stock. It's been glaringly obvious for years to even the most casual observer that that is the case. Within the last six months, all this smart money has suddenly become convinced? In other words, I'm not arguing the market understood Tesla then, quite the opposite.
"The stock is simply not going to move in lockstep with monthly or quarterly production and deliveries". This is also a fair point and a major departure from last year if true.

Tks
 

EV forever

Supporting Member
Apr 23, 2016
718
5,355
Irvine, CA
If I understand this, what Tesla decided to do was optional and considerably more generous than required. If so, it's kind of hard for claims that Tesla is treating their employees poorly to be taken seriously.

No, I would say it would be neutral - not much more than required.
For e.g. suppose I have 15 days of PTO accumulated. This is 15 paid days that the company owes me. The shutdown starts and I am furloughed. Tesla has to cash this out and pay me for the 15 days of PTO. So I get the full pay for these days, but now I no longer have any PTO accumulated when I go back to work.

Then I decide I want to take another week off before I go back to work or take some vacation days later in the year. Now, I would need to take those days off as unpaid leave since I no longer have any PTO days. So it would be fair for both - for me as the employee I already got paid for PTO days in advance and have the option to take unpaid leave if I want; the employer is not paying for time not worked. So, it is neutral.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
14,981
31,855
Oregon
Did you read the article in the link? It was this FUD article the way it is written that suggests that Tesla did something wrong.

I didn't see it as suggesting Tesla did something wrong. And it did say Tesla paid them. What it actually said:

And while Tesla previously told its employees that they can use paid time off (PTO) days to stay home if they feel uncomfortable coming in, the company recently cashed out many of those workers’ remaining PTO days because of the extended furlough.

Which is accurate. And the tweet by Sean O'Kane was accurate as well:

Tesla is opening up & called back furloughed employees in violation of local order. Those uncomfortable w/ coming in must take unpaid leave, forcing them to choose between $$ and coronavirus risk. Many now can’t take paid leave because Tesla cashed it out.

Sure it may have been written to make it easier for you to jump to the conclusion they wanted you to, but it didn't mis-state any facts... Could they have added more context, like saying that Tesla cashed out the PTO because they were required to by California law when furloughing the employees, sure. But it wasn't necessary.

However, the article did get at least one fact wrong:

The workers who spoke to The Verge described difficult decisions they made about whether or not they should report in this week as their employer and CEO wages a public battle with local officials. Since they are both hourly workers, they won’t be paid if they stay home. If they do go in, they will make less than they used to thanks to recent company-wide pay cuts.

The pay cuts only apply to salaried workers, and they were talking about hourly employees... So no pay cuts.
 

LJS22

Active Member
Mar 21, 2019
1,081
7,536
Texas

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