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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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There has been a lot of speculation / guessing / even some modeling about how far the SP may rise due to S&P500 inclusion. There have certainly been some speculative stock buying in anticipation and those will most likely sell as soon as the index funds finished their buying frenzy.

My question* is: how deep will be the post-inclusion dip caused by the profit taking amplified by momentum traders and fresh shorting ? Will we be back into 3 digit realm ?

Asking for a friend, who is trying to time the market ;)
 
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That's the virgin galactic model. SpaceX is not focused on tourism.


SpaceX to build floating spaceports for rockets bound for the moon and Mars, and for hypersonic Earth travel – TechCrunch

Elon Musk said:
SpaceX is building floating, superheavy-class spaceports for Mars, moon & hypersonic travel around Earth

(bold added to make it clear moving (presumably rich at least early on) people from place to place on earth is specifically a thing they're focused on doing)

Maybe it's still somehow less emissions than regular jets? Haven't much looked into that, but it's a thing they're doing.



There has been a lot of speculation / guessing / even some modeling about how far the SP may rise due to S&P500 inclusion. There have certainly been some speculative stock buying in anticipation and those will most likely sell as soon as the index funds finished their buying frenzy.

My question is: how deep will be the post-inclusion dip caused by the profit taking amplified by momentum traders and fresh shorting ? Will we be back into 3 digit realm ?



I've seen a LOT of generic thinking along the lines of:

Stock will spike on inclusion, then drop- therefore smart thing to do is sell on the spike, then rebuy (either same shares with profit left over, or more shares using the profit) on the drop.

(plus also the folks who're planning to short the crap out of the spike)

Course that requires some of that timing the market folks often caution against.

How many folks will still try it? Impossible to say. I kinda doubt if there's, just for arguments sake, a $1500->$2000 spike from inclusion, that it'd drop in HALF on any drop though- so 3 digit seems pretty unlikely to me.
 
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There has been a lot of speculation / guessing / even some modeling about how far the SP may rise due to S&P500 inclusion. There have certainly been some speculative stock buying in anticipation and those will most likely sell as soon as the index funds finished their buying frenzy.

My question is: how deep will be the post-inclusion dip caused by the profit taking amplified by momentum traders and fresh shorting ? Will we be back into 3 digit realm ?
I think a lot of profit taking has already been done
Shorts are going to short and the short % has steadily gone down and I think this time won't be any different.
SP inclusion is not the only thing holding us up. The media is changing its tone. Our "competitors" are demonstrably failing. Tesla is hiring and building all over the world; that is not lost on investors. Price targets have been changed. Etcetera.
 
Maybe a little OT, but have an investment question for which no one (CPA, broker, Financial Planner) can provide me a straight answer. And I figured if anyone would know, it might be someone here.

Specifically, anyone know anything about SOLO ROTH 401K eligibility?

I am self-employed, no other employees. Not incorporated, but file a Schedule C every year, and all my income is 1099'd.

The wrinkle is, I have been contributing to a SEP IRA for years (in addition to a regular Roth). But I recently just discovered the Solo Roth 401k, which seems better for my needs than a SEP IRA (i.e. I'd rather forgo tax savings now, in order to withdraw money in retirement tax free).

Does anyone know if I can open a Solo Roth 401k when I already have a SEP IRA? Is it one or the other? Or can I switch and use a SOLO ROTH 401k going forward? Or can I do both each year?

fyi -- My brokerage will open it for me, and I can fund it. But the last thing I want is to realize down the road that I'm in violation of some IRS rule or something. And I did do a deep dive reading IRS rules, but even there, it wasn't clear (to me).

Again, basic question is: Does already having a SEP IRA preclude me from opening a SOLO ROTH 401K?

Asking on the off chance someone might have particular insight to this. Thanks so much.

Solo 401(k) And SEP IRA - Can You Have Both? | IRA Financial Group

IANACPA.
 
Any Value Investors in TSLA?

Yup! My username gra-phil-war is a mash up of three people:

1. Benjamin Graham
2. Philip Fisher
3. Warren Buffett

Let’s talk about mistakes. In my youth, I refused to buy Apple when it was sub-200B market cap because I was a so-called value investor looking for defensible moats like Warren Buffett in industries that do not change very much, like candy or Coke. basically i was looking for good companies at a cheap price, and I would be hunting in the sub-10 p/e range, etc. Avoided tech companies because: “well Warren doesn’t think they have a moat because tech turns over too much, so why should I ever invest in Apple.”

10 years later, Apple is like 30% of Berkshire’s investment portfolio, Warren Buffett is fawning over Apple’s massive moat and taking selfies with Tim Cook and I have managed to talk myself out of a 10-bagger because of my self imposed blinders.

To be brutally honest, my mistake was that I was just copying styles. Yes I was listening to Graham, Fisher and Buffett, but I was not truly understanding the spirit of investing — which is being able to see the future, and paying less than it is worth in the present. I was, in being so straight and narrow to the style and not the substance— putting myself in a mental straight jacket.

The lesson I took away from that experience is that growth companies ARE value companies.

Typical “value” companies are undervalued based on their past 10 year track record of earnings power, and everyone can see that record so it’s competitive and the market is actually pretty good on handicapping the odds in those situations, making it really hard to get an edge. You need to turn over a lot of rocks to find these, and you’re hoping for some mean reversion to get you that nice bump and rinse and repeat. On the other hand, growth companies (not all, I’m talking about a select few) tend to be underpriced on the basis of the next 10 years, and you can hold without paying cap gains taxes, and sometimes a growth company will evolve to something 10 years in the future far greater than what you can see from your vantage point in the present (see: Netflix evolution from shipper of DVDs to streaming to content production+streaming, and Amazon from online bookseller to AWS to well whatever the hell they are today. Behemoth?) Most people are skeptical/uncomfortable basing their valuation on future growth that by definition hasn’t happened yet. Because of that discomfort I think growth companies can be severely mispriced, on the growth that you can see from your vantage point today alone (with all the other unforeseen growth potentially serving as improved upside that you never paid for but would definitely benefit from).

Of course you’ll need to have conviction about the next 10 years, and your vision of the future needs to be roughly accurate. But yeah severe mispricings occur, especially when you get the combination of multiple expansion (as the market awakens to the company) AND earnings growth (the company executed on your vision of the future potential).

When I look at TSLA at 1500, it’s underpricing my vision for auto growth and margin potential in 2020 already. Then there’s two other free call options built into the stock price: a call on autonomy, and a call on energy. I think both of those are enormously valuable and they’re currently priced at $0. So as a value investor I think it’s an enormously compelling opportunity.

Like Warren once said, you might only get 20 punches in your punchcard over an investing lifetime, where a pitch comes right down the middle. What are you going to do when you see that fat pitch? Bunt to get to first? No, you SWING for the fences, ya bum! And that’s what I’m doing as a so-called value investor in TSLA.
 
At 9600 baud.

VW is likely using an industry standard CAN bus. While 1MBit/sec speeds are obtainable, the most common is 500kBits/second.

But, you have to factor in a few things:
1) CAN buses never run at full loading. 50%-60% is the max loading permissible by most OEMs while the vehicle is running. For updating, it's certainly possible they're running at a higher loading, let's say 80% to be generous.
2) A CAN bus message frame has high overhead. While the frame is 128 bits, the maximum data field is 64 bits. So you lose at least another half there. There are also bits for frame spacing added.
3) The system is probably designed with acknowledgment return messages, further clogging bandwidth.

I haven't done the math, but say about 1600 message frames/second times 8 bytes/frame = 12,800 baud, depending on acknowledgment messages, the effective rate might even be less.

So, the "joke" at 9600 baud may not be too far off from reality!
 
Yup! My username gra-phil-war is a mash up of three people:

1. Benjamin Graham
2. Philip Fisher
3. Warren Buffett

Let’s talk about mistakes. In my youth, I refused to buy Apple when it was sub-200B market cap because I was a so-called value investor looking for defensible moats like Warren Buffett in industries that do not change very much, like candy or Coke. basically i was looking for good companies at a cheap price, and I would be hunting in the sub-10 p/e range, etc. Avoided tech companies because: “well Warren doesn’t think they have a moat because tech turns over too much, so why should I ever invest in Apple.”

10 years later, Apple is like 30% of Berkshire’s investment portfolio, Warren Buffett is fawning over Apple’s massive moat and taking selfies with Tim Cook and I have managed to talk myself out of a 10-bagger because of my self imposed blinders.

To be brutally honest, my mistake was that I was just copying styles. Yes I was listening to Graham, Fisher and Buffett, but I was not truly understanding the spirit of investing — which is being able to see the future, and paying less than it is worth in the present. I was, in being so straight and narrow to the style and not the substance— putting myself in a mental straight jacket.

The lesson I took away from that experience is that growth companies ARE value companies.

Typical “value” companies are undervalued based on their past 10 year track record of earnings power, and everyone can see that record so it’s competitive and the market is actually pretty good on handicapping the odds in those situations, making it really hard to get an edge. You need to turn over a lot of rocks to find these, and you’re hoping for some mean reversion to get you that nice bump and rinse and repeat. On the other hand, growth companies (not all, I’m talking about a select few) tend to be underpriced on the basis of the next 10 years, and you can hold without paying cap gains taxes, and sometimes a growth company will evolve to something 10 years in the future far greater than what you can see from your vantage point in the present (see: Netflix evolution from shipper of DVDs to streaming to content production+streaming, and Amazon from online bookseller to AWS to well whatever the hell they are today. Behemoth?) Most people are skeptical/uncomfortable basing their valuation on future growth that by definition hasn’t happened yet. Because of that discomfort I think growth companies can be severely mispriced, on the growth that you can see from your vantage point today alone (with all the other unforeseen growth potentially serving as improved upside that you never paid for but would definitely benefit from).

Of course you’ll need to have conviction about the next 10 years, and your vision of the future needs to be roughly accurate. But yeah severe mispricings occur, especially when you get the combination of multiple expansion (as the market awakens to the company) AND earnings growth (the company executed on your vision of the future potential).

When I look at TSLA at 1500, it’s underpricing my vision for auto growth and margin potential in 2020 already. Then there’s two other free call options built into the stock price: a call on autonomy, and a call on energy. I think both of those are enormously valuable and they’re currently priced at $0. So as a value investor I think it’s an enormously compelling opportunity.

Like Warren once said, you might only get 20 punches in your punchcard over an investing lifetime, where a pitch comes right down the middle. What are you going to do when you see that fat pitch? Bunt to get to first? No, you SWING for the fences, ya bum! And that’s what I’m doing as a so-called value investor in TSLA.

It's instructive to realize that Warren Buffet hasn't outperformed the S&P 500 for decades. The reason traditional value investing is dead is because everyone has so much more information now. Buffet made his fortune in a different era where investing was the province of a few wealthy individuals. Now anyone with a Robinhood account can YOLO some stinks. So now you just buy Big Tech like everyone else besides that's what keeps getting bigger.
 
To be brutally honest, my mistake was that I was just copying styles. Yes I was listening to Graham, Fisher and Buffett, but I was not truly understanding the spirit of investing — which is being able to see the future, and paying less than it is worth in the present. I was, in being so straight and narrow to the style and not the substance— putting myself in a mental straight jacket.

The lesson I took away from that experience is that growth companies ARE value companies.

Not all growth companies are value companies. But I agree with the premise that in this low-interest rate environment, growth has been mispriced and therefore it is a good area for a value investor to investigate.

Musk to a greater degree, and Bezos to a somewhat lesser degree have been able to take advantage of plentiful money. Of all businesspeople in the world today, Musk knows precisely how to use an incremental dollar. Bezos is great at it too, but even he has been unable to spend the gusher of cash put off by AWS. Perhaps Musk is signalling that his hot hand will be slightly less hot when he focuses so much on recruiting, by the way.

Warren Buffett and Ben Graham had their heydays in different eras and found value in different places. And in eras of less plentiful money, Musk and Bezos might have had a rougher go of it as entrepreneurs, and me as an investor. Tough to know.
 
Why can't Americans enjoy the same quality? Why does the China built models have higher quality? Freemont, time to stop with the excuses. Maybe its time for some management reshuffling at Freemont.

Tesla's made-in-China cars lead market in quality while US-made Tesla cars score lowest - Electrek

1) Giga Shanghai isn't making Model X. The most difficult to make Tesla.

2) Giga Shanghai isn't ramping up Model Y.

3) Giga Shanghai doesn't have to juggle S3XY production.

4) Giga Shanghai doesn't operate under California rules.

5) Lastly, this assumes the Chinese Survey, CR and JP Power are comparably accurate and aim to measure the same thing.
 
Bob Lutz said he saw a random Model 3 in a parking lot and approached it to examine it up close. He said the exterior fit and finish were perfect.

That is far from the "panel gap thing" being resolved.

So his casual analysis where he said the cars were bad quality because of panel gaps was important and to be believed, but his casual analysis where he says “not only was the paint without any discernible flaw, but the various panels formed a body of precision that was beyond reproach" is something to be disregarded as anecdotal? You can't have it both ways.

My comment stands. If he is comfortable saying the precision on a given car was beyond reproach, means that the panel gap is issue resolved in his mind. Alternatively, he is an idiot and we shouldn't listen to anything he says, positive or negative.
 
It's instructive to realize that Warren Buffet hasn't outperformed the S&P 500 for decades. The reason traditional value investing is dead is because everyone has so much more information now. Buffet made his fortune in a different era where investing was the province of a few wealthy individuals. Now anyone with a Robinhood account can YOLO some stinks. So now you just buy Big Tech like everyone else besides that's what keeps getting bigger.
I've been saying this for a while. Buffett was legendary but most of his early work can now be done by computers in a matter of seconds. If you don't invest in the future now, may as well don't invest at all.
 
So his casual analysis where he said the cars were bad quality because of panel gaps was important and to be believed, but his casual analysis where he says “not only was the paint without any discernible flaw, but the various panels formed a body of precision that was beyond reproach" is something to be disregarded as anecdotal? You can't have it both ways.


I have never touted Bob Lutz anecdotal evidence as evidence of anything.

CR,JD Power, and Auto Pacifica surveys are the best data we have in the USA for auto quality.