Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[OPRCE]

In your back and forth with Karen, I think you need to get some facts straight first.

The 270wh/kg is for the cell level density of the Taycan pack, NOT the pack density.

250wh/kg is Tesla's cell level density: Tesla Model 3 2170 Energy Density Compared To Bolt, Model S P100D

Audi's battery pack weighs 700kg, but the Tesla P100D weighs over 600kg (extrapolated, since we only have: Tesla's 85kwh battery pack weighs 540kg, and the 100 weighs at least 130 lbs more than that). So their pack weights are much closer than your original number.

The Audi pack is considerably heavier by design - follow the link to see how they have the cooling system cool the cell modules instead of the cells directly, and the cell modules are individually incased in an aluminium crash cage.

Factor all that together, and it is most definitely reasonable to assume that Audi's cell density is comparable to Tesla's or Porsche's cell density. With that, you can definitely say that those cells are energy-dense versus power-dense by design.

Thanks but I think my grasp of the facts is more than adequate:

1. KarenRei supplied the figure of 270Wh/kg energy density for the Taycan cell, which I immediately took at face value.

2. Tesla's NCA 21700 cell specific energy density was calculated at 247Wh/kg by Jack Rickard in a teardown video, also yielding 240Wh/kg for the S85 cell. The 100D cells, which are upgraded with silicon, are presumably somewhat better than those in the 85kWh packs and claimed at 250Wh/kg in the link you provided.

3. My 590kg for S100D pack stems from Den, a site admin at EV Compare.io - Find the electric car which suits you best
Don't know how accurate that is but >600kg is a quite vague. How much closer is "much closer"?

4. The Audi pack is stronger by design for crash-resistance but we do not know for instance that it contains a lower proportion of net cell weight than the Tesla S100D pack. It could for example be that Tesla had to expend a larger percentage of its pack weight into cooling the NCA cells with higher internal resistance hence heat generation, such that non-cell weight for each pack could end up being roughly the same despite the differing constructions. This can only be decided once we have a full spec for the Audi cell.

5. The Audi NCM 622 is from LG CHEM and thus presumed to be closely related (chemically) to the Bolt EV cells, which are given in that same link with a comparable specific energy density but a volumetric energy density 61.6% that of the best Tesla NCA cell [100D]

6. I think from all that it is not unreasonable to infer that the Audi e-Tron cells have roughly the same energy density in weight terms as Tesla but are still considerably worse for volume, thus quite probably leading to a relatively bulky [and heavy] pack which is overall less energy dense than the S100D.

7. I agree that the Audi cells seem to be designed for a good balance of energy-density and power-density, at the expense of greater volume, compared to Tesla's NCA, which exhibits supreme volumetric energy density at the expense of lower specific power [==charge rate].
i.e. the old "you can pick any 2/3" rule: specific energy density, volumetric energy density or power density.
If this is case it tends to refute the false dichotomy of KarenRei that because Audi's cells are relatively energy dense they cannot be as power dense as Tesla's NCA and thus Audi must be frying their packs by design.

 

[OPRCE]

When (if) VW are competitive enough in the EV market, there will be others competing against them. How long will take for some of their competitors to put an ad, reminding us all what a wonderful company VW's was for the last 10 years or so?

Ima guess <5 minutes?

But then that's their problem, not mine!

 

[winfield100]

Nope, I saw all that; that About page reveals very little. My questions remain: who runs it, who works for it, how many work there, who funded it, how much money is behind it, where is it headquartered. I’m not suggesting this org isn’t legit, but I sure would like to see a pro-EV outfit be a lot more transparent than your typical Koch Bros astroturf org. Seems odd this group is so shy.

OT
This does not give much information, but a few years back our EV club, EVADC visited Semaconnect HQ, off Telsa drive (yes it’s misspelled, Maryland motor vehicles Dept etc) they manufactured at that time L2 EV chargers. Many of us were or are members of Electric Vehicle Association a group who promote EV’s. Plug in America is a group that wants to promote EV’s and is loosely associated with the fall solar home tour folks
They, as am I, all renewable energy enthusiasts, solar, wind, EV. Some members put on EV races for about 14 years that were loosely associated with the 3 groups I mentioned,

 

[cheshire cat]

Thanks but I think my grasp of the facts is more than adequate:

1. KarenRei supplied the figure of 270Wh/kg energy density for the Taycan cell, which I immediately took at face value.

2. Tesla's NCA 21700 cell specific energy density was calculated at 247Wh/kg by Jack Rickard in a teardown video, also yielding 240Wh/kg for the S85 cell. The 100D cells, which are upgraded with silicon, are presumably somewhat better than those in the 85kWh packs and claimed at 250Wh/kg in the link you provided.

3. My 590kg for S100D pack stems from Den, a site admin at EV Compare.io - Find the electric car which suits you best
Don't know how accurate that is but >600kg is a quite vague. How much closer is "much closer"?

4. The Audi pack is stronger by design for crash-resistance but we do not know for instance that it contains a lower proportion of net cell weight than the Tesla S100D pack. It could for example be that Tesla had to expend a larger percentage of its pack weight into cooling the NCA cells with higher internal resistance hence heat generation, such that non-cell weight for each pack could end up being roughly the same despite the differing constructions. This can only be decided once we have a full spec for the Audi cell.

5. The Audi NCM 622 is from LG CHEM and thus presumed to be closely related (chemically) to the Bolt EV cells, which are given in that same link with a comparable specific energy density but a volumetric energy density 61.6% that of the best Tesla NCA cell [100D]
View attachment 376258
6. I think from all that it is not unreasonable to infer that the Audi e-Tron cells have roughly the same energy density in weight terms as Tesla but are still considerably worse for volume, thus quite probably leading to a relatively bulky pack which is overall less energy dense than the S100D.

7. I agree that the Audi cells seem to be designed for a good balance of energy-density and power-density, at the expense of greater volume, compared to Tesla's NCA, which exhibits supreme volumetric energy density at the expense of lower specific power [==charge rate].
i.e. the old "you can pick any 2/3" rule: specific energy density, volumetric energy density or power density.
If this is case it tends to refute the false dichotomy of KarenRei that because Audi's cells are relatively energy dense they cannot be as power dense as Tesla's NCA and thus Audi must be frying their packs by design.

Mathematical correction---- make that the cube of the length!

 

[Sancho]

The Canaccord upgrade is exactly what we anticipated as the Tesla story becomes obvious to people paying less attention than us.

This is the start of the Great Awakening. Investors, analysts, and financial reporters rubbing the sands from their eyes on TSLA.

There will always be TSLA bears and shorts, but we are about to enter a period in which there are more TSLA bulls and longs. That is a new world for us.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Steve Jobs on Twitter

View attachment 376262

OK, I gotta ask...
Is this for real, a parody, or just someone's attempt at humor? Not sure how to take this.

Dan

 

[OPRCE]

Mathematical correction---- make that the cube of the length!

Just to save any more of your obviously precious time pray be informed that tsk'ing with your tongue also doesn't work as an argument suppressor.

 

[KarenRei]

So, I just (re)-woke up, and I'm catching up on the past 13 hours What'd I miss? Why's the premarket up 2,3%?

 

[Dan Detweiler]

The Canaccord upgrade is exactly what we anticipated as the Tesla story becomes obvious to people paying less attention than us.

This is the start of the Great Awakening. Investors, analysts, and financial reporters rubbing the sands from their eyes on TSLA.

There will always be TSLA bears and shorts, but we are about to enter a period in which there are more TSLA bulls and longs. That is a new world for us.

I wish I shared your confidence in the market. While I think Tesla just needs to keep on keeping on doing the things they are to expand their market and maintain their lead in technology, I don't see the market changing its stance significantly for a while. Call me a cynic. Sure hope I'm wrong.

Dan

 

[shlokavica22]

OK, I gotta ask...
Is this for real, a parody, or just someone's attempt at humor? Not sure how to take this.

Dan

Real.

KillingMyCareer on Twitter

 

[bhtooefr]

So, I just (re)-woke up, and I'm catching up on the past 13 hours What'd I miss? Why's the premarket up 2,3%?

Canaccord upgraded Tesla from Hold with a $330 PT to Buy at a $450 PT.

 

[KarenRei]

Canaccord upgraded Tesla from Hold with a $330 PT to Buy at a $450 PT.

Wow, that's one heck of an upgrade!

 

[Tslynk67]

OK, I gotta ask...
Is this for real, a parody, or just someone's attempt at humor? Not sure how to take this.

Dan

She makes up the most outrageous claims against Musk and Tesla. She's "famous" for being part of a whistle-blower thing some years ago (I can't remember what), and for some reason is now trying to bring down Tesla - I guess she's being paid by someone for that.

With all due respect to those with psychological issues, personally I think she's mental...

Take a look, if you dare - she's even more unhinged than MBS: KillingMyCareer (@MelaynaLokosky) | Twitter

 

[winfield100]

2. I'd be delighted to see it ... please link or produce. Rest assured it will be treated without bias.

4. I presume KarenRei is aware of this possibility, which is precisely why she so doggedly beats around the bush with meaningless gibberish about "power dense" cells (i.e. LTO), which is her way of evading.......Her problem there is that she firmly concluded the opposite in order to jump to the prejudiced.....
[I have noted on another thread that she seems to suffer from a fanatical devotion to His Muskiness, coupled with the inability to admit any error, no matter how trivial]
here.

@OPRCE
Without bias?
Surrealiously? Gawd, you remind me of how unctuous Montana was. Self congratulations coupled with “redacted due to family friendly forum”. Beyond “care bare”
Just a troll

 

[elasalle]

 

[KarenRei]

I keep hearing some noise from that wall I had been talking to earlier. Strange.

 

[Unpilot]

So tomorrow the market will open....and more M3 will roll of the assembly line.

I keep hearing some noise from that wall I had been talking to earlier. Strange.

The unbiased wall with faulty battery information?

 

[Unpilot]

So tomorrow the market will open....and more M3 will roll of the assembly line.

The unbiased wall with faulty battery information?

My formatting skills are weak.

 

[cheshire cat]

Just to save any more of your obviously precious time pray be informed that tsk'ing with your tongue also doesn't work as an argument suppressor.

Don't know what tsk'ing is but I Do know boring, and smug is another word I understand.

 

[Causalien]

The Canaccord upgrade is exactly what we anticipated as the Tesla story becomes obvious to people paying less attention than us.

This is the start of the Great Awakening. Investors, analysts, and financial reporters rubbing the sands from their eyes on TSLA.

There will always be TSLA bears and shorts, but we are about to enter a period in which there are more TSLA bulls and longs. That is a new world for us.

It's a Matrix moment when my largest wealth manager upgrades my largest pure stock holding. Whoa...

Then the next thought came by. Did they just copied my portfolio?