Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Foghat]

The difference is that when Tesla did it, there was no competition.

Attn Tesla Marketing:

Have Elon take a magazine cover shot sitting on a rusted engine block in the middle of a dusty old junkyard with backdrop of stacked crush gas cars, tesla branded slingshot in hand...

Nothing more powerful then reality following archetypal story to a tee.

 

[Todd Burch]

What's funny about all this is that I think some new Maxwell-based battery technology will come along within the next 6 months that will make the Taycan's specs look even worse relative to the S...and I bet S and X get it first...

 

[Tslynk67]

Yikes, look at the leg-room!

Granted the guy looks like he's 9ft tall, but still a bit tight:

TESLARATI on Twitter

 

[xhawk101]

What was Porsche even doing when benchmarking the Model S for the last few years? Did the product marketers force them to sandbag it to not throughly trounce the rest of their lineup?

Yes makes you wonder if they feel the need to handicap their ev so as to not cannibalize their ICE offerings.

Their marketing is quick to steer away from mentioning benefits to the environment. Probably because doing so would by default serve to potentially hinder their ICE product sales.

For ICE companies to succeed with serious BEV they would be wise to start spin off or separate companies it would seem.

Then those new companies will not have inherent conflict of interest. When ICE sales really start to tank versus the EV, they can wind down / bankwupt them strategically.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Dear Porsche,

I like the general exterior design of your Taycan.

Everything else, though (which is where I told you yesterday it would really matter)....sigh...

Dear Tesla:

Your cars look great, but hire a few Porsche designers.

But damn, let them keep their engineers.

Amen. So annoying that Fisker couldn't be bothered to do his job. Excited for a MS refresh!

 

[MP3Mike]

Configurator is open on the Porsche website. It get's real pricy, real quick. Similar spec to a Tesla Model S Performance is $200k!

MobileCharger

• Speedr117
• Sep 4, 2019

My personal favorite: you HAVE to buy a charger, either the Mobile Charger Connect for...wait for it...$1,120, or the Mobile Charger Connect incl. Home Energy Manager (currently unavailable) for $1,660. They MAKE you buy the charger!!! And it isn't cheap!!! Wow, a new low in nickle and dime pricing.

Wow!

But my favorite option only costs $500:

Porsche Electric Sport Sound

Porsche Electric Sport Sound enhances the vehicle’s own sound and makes it sound even more emotional - both outside and inside the vehicle. Can be activated/deactivated via Porsche Communication Management (PCM).

Edit correction most surprising: $460

On-Board 150 kW DC Charger

Optional On-Board DC Charger to increase maximum charging capacity when charging at public 400V direct current charging stations. By increasing the charging capacity to 150kW, the charging time is decreased.

I thought they came with 270kW charging... But 150kW charging is optional... Oh, I get it, the 270kW charging is only at 800 volt locations. At 400 volt locations you only get 50kW unless you pay $460 more. (At least that is what it looks like.) They certainly don't make that clear...

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

The difference is that when Tesla did it, there was no competition.

This is what I've been saying for a while now. The strategy of release high priced version first and work to lower priced version as you scale doesn't really work when you have a higher spec and lower price competition that you need to match. Tesla didn't have that competition. They could charge 130k for the Perf versions because there was nothing else like it on the market. Porsche doesn't have that luxury.

To make matters worse for them, Tesla is moving target, both in specs and price. Tesla could release a updated S and or X at anytime and create further disparity between themselves and porsche in both specs and price and porsche wouldn't be able to counter.

I mean the high end Taycan by the time it's in full production for the US will have to compete with a roadster that is almost triple the range of Taycan.....at the same price point.

 

[FreqFlyer]

Funny all this angst about the Porsche Taycan. It’s a Porsche, enough said. If you are a car guy , you get it, if you are a tree hugger you don’t.

Range? If you are dropping $200k on a Taycan, you are using the 2nd or 3rd car, whatever that may be to go on long trips.

 

[dww12]

FTFY (haha, let's keep with the analogy).

But let's roll that Roaster, Elon! And no 20-Century 'Turbo', but if we have to wait past 2020, then let's (v3) Supercharge a 240 KWh 'Maxcell' bty in 1 hr.

Cheers!

Eh, Tesla’s got cold gas thrusters.

 

[skivi]

Too much Porsche talk
Let's get back to numbers - teslastats.no up to 260 deliveries since sept.
Exciting weeks ahead.

 

[Singuy]

L

Funny all this angst about the Porsche Taycan. It’s a Porsche, enough said. If you are a car guy , you get it, if you are a tree hugger you don’t.

Range? If you are dropping $200k on a Taycan, you are using the 2nd or 3rd car, whatever that may be to go on long trips.

A car guy usually appreciate the mechanical marvel of the machine. EVs are a departure from that. So i don't know how many car guys who roll the windows down in a tunnel to hear the power of their V8 would jump in line for a Porsche EV especially everything they offer that's not the Taycan is better in terms of pricing and sustained performance.

 

[CorneliusXX]

Sigh, techcrunch....

View attachment 450372

First they say that, then show specs that blatantly show that the Taycan is basically twice the price:

View attachment 450376

Porsche Taycan vs Tesla Model S: Spec for spec, price for price – TechCrunch

I'm surprised that the cars are almost identical in size. If I had to guess I would have thought the Porsche was significantly smaller.

 

[Swampgator]

L


A car guy usually appreciate the mechanical marvel of the machine. EVs are a departure from that. So i don't know how many car guys who roll the windows down in a tunnel to hear the power of their V8 would jump in line for a Porsche EV especially everything they offer that's not the Taycan is better in terms of pricing and sustained performance.

Disagree with this. When I drove my S2000 I loved to hear it rev to 9000 rpm. If I owned a Ferrari I would have windows down EVERYWHERE. Car guys like me buy Teslas every day.

 

[Foghat]

Funny all this angst about the Porsche Taycan. It’s a Porsche, enough said. If you are a car guy , you get it, if you are a tree hugger you don’t.

Range? If you are dropping $200k on a Taycan, you are using the 2nd or 3rd car, whatever that may be to go on long trips.

The market for a 200k car is extremely small. It will only tarnish Porsche brand when sales falter and Porsche enthusiasts get frustrated by the lack of charging convenience and performance of what Tesla offers, especially when the Roadster comes out within a year of its mass production.

Again, the false promise of a once prominent brand will be exposed like many others of recent.

Taycan is good for only one car and that’s Tesla Roadster.

Yes, Tesla didn’t have competition when it started out, but what we are seeing now is that Tesla was so far ahead in its tech and company vision since everyone else doesn’t even come close.

If the big European brands tried this in 2013, Tesla sales would’ve been more production limited/demand swamped because of the inadvertent pro Tesla advertising based on their main stream advertising campaigns for their inferior product.

Elon has even said in the past one significant contributing reason for not doing advertising is to limit the demand bottleneck to allow production to ramp to minimize wait time as the company scales.

So, if the European brands pump their new BEV products now, it will only be more free advertising for Tesla. In the case of the Taycan, the Roadster sales will only be higher for that market segment because of it.

So the more hype on the Taycan that spreads, the more Tesla benefits.

 

[FreqFlyer]

Disagree with this. When I drove my S2000 I loved to hear it rev to 9000 rpm. If I owned a Ferrari I would have windows down EVERYWHERE. Car guys like me buy Teslas every day.

Funny, I did the same thing when I drove the S2000. Awesome mechanical engineering at work.

 

[X Fan]

The market for a 200k car is extremely small. It will only tarnish Porsche brand when sales falter and Porsche enthusiasts get frustrated by the lack of charging convenience and performance of what Tesla offers, especially when the Roadster comes out within a year of its mass production.

Again, the false promise of a once prominent brand will be exposed like many others of recent.

Taycan is good for only one car and that’s Tesla Roadster.

Yes, Tesla didn’t have competition when it started out, but what we are seeing now is that Tesla was so far ahead in its tech and company vision since everyone else doesn’t even come close.

If the big European brands tried this in 2013, Tesla sales would’ve been more production limited/demand swamped because of the inadvertent pro Tesla advertising based on their main stream advertising campaigns for their inferior product.

Elon has even said in the past one significant contributing reason for not doing advertising is to limit the demand bottleneck to allow production to ramp to minimize wait time as the company scales.

So, if the European brands pump their new BEV products now, it will only be more free advertising for Tesla. In the case of the Taycan, the Roadster sales will only be higher for that market segment because of it.

So the more hype on the Taycan that spreads, the more Tesla benefits.

Porsche's Cayennes and Macans are interstate vehicles whereby the I'm thinking the profiled buyer of the Taycan will primarily use it for local driving/showing off.

 

[larmor]

The market for a 200k car is extremely small. It will only tarnish Porsche brand when sales falter and Porsche enthusiasts get frustrated by the lack of charging convenience and performance of what Tesla offers, especially when the Roadster comes out within a year of its mass production.

Again, the false promise of a once prominent brand will be exposed like many others of recent.

Taycan is good for only one car and that’s Tesla Roadster.

Yes, Tesla didn’t have competition when it started out, but what we are seeing now is that Tesla was so far ahead in its tech and company vision since everyone else doesn’t even come close.

If the big European brands tried this in 2013, Tesla sales would’ve been more production limited/demand swamped because of the inadvertent pro Tesla advertising based on their main stream advertising campaigns for their inferior product.

Elon has even said in the past one significant contributing reason for not doing advertising is to limit the demand bottleneck to allow production to ramp to minimize wait time as the company scales.

So, if the European brands pump their new BEV products now, it will only be more free advertising for Tesla. In the case of the Taycan, the Roadster sales will only be higher for that market segment because of it.

So the more hype on the Taycan that spreads, the more Tesla benefits.

I priced out a taycan turbo 220k! model s performance was 113k and roadster 200k. I wonder if all the FUD articles and pricing issues that were aimed at tesla would now shift to porsche? Plus what about all those 2013 model s comparisons to the i3.

I am still very pleased that porsche released its EV, because that gives tesla legitimacy that it couldn't earn despite great specs due to overall environment slanted against EVs....

 

[humbaba]

Well, as this article points out,
Everything you wanted to know about Porsche’s new electric car

Let them have it, no problem.


Meanwhile, in Europe the main EV competition comes from Nouvelle ZOE | Véhicules Electriques | Véhicules | Renault FR

Interesting. From Ars Technica we have this nugget:

Porsche opted for an 800V high voltage architecture; until now almost every other BEV from Audi to Tesla and all stops in between have used 400V. Among the benefits of this higher voltage are faster charging—currently at up to 270kW, although Porsche thinks 400-500kW should be possible in time—as well as reduced weight and better packaging thanks to much thinner wires (because more volts mean fewer amps).

I thought better of Ars Technica, but it is currently at 150kW -- Bark on Twitter

However, they do have some nice details, such as how the two speed transmission works. I found this nugget even more interesting:

In the Taycan Turbo this normally provides a continuous 190A, which gives the motor 175kW (235hp) and 300Nm (221lb-ft). But when you activate launch control, the inverter can overboost the motor to 300A. Do that and the Taycan Turbo suddenly packs a hefty 500kW (670hp) and 850Nm (630lb-ft), albeit for just 2.5 seconds at a time.

So while the Taycan may, overall, provide repeatable performance the off-the-line acceleration is achieved through non-durable over driving of the motor. I guess its a little like overclocking your CPU. It also speaks to the lack of utility claimed for super-ultra-high-power capacitors -- this is exactly an example of the use case for using an ultra cap, and an ultra cap would provide a buffer for the overpowered regen. And yet, Porsche is not using them. Maybe the ultracap detractors have been onto something.

And Ars Technica is repeating as if it were new, a 2017 article they did on Tesla Model S lack of back-to-back performance. Which really makes me wonder if this is still an issue. Has anyone taken a Raven out and put it through its paces? Inquiring minds would like to know.

So while it isn't a bad article it is certainly uneven.

 

[FreqFlyer]

The market for a 200k car is extremely small. It will only tarnish Porsche brand when sales falter and Porsche enthusiasts get frustrated by the lack of charging convenience and performance of what Tesla offers, especially when the Roadster comes out within a year of its mass production.

Again, the false promise of a once prominent brand will be exposed like many others of recent.

Taycan is good for only one car and that’s Tesla Roadster.

Yes, Tesla didn’t have competition when it started out, but what we are seeing now is that Tesla was so far ahead in its tech and company vision since everyone else doesn’t even come close.

If the big European brands tried this in 2013, Tesla sales would’ve been more production limited/demand swamped because of the inadvertent pro Tesla advertising based on their main stream advertising campaigns for their inferior product.

Elon has even said in the past one significant contributing reason for not doing advertising is to limit the demand bottleneck to allow production to ramp to minimize wait time as the company scales.

So, if the European brands pump their new BEV products now, it will only be more free advertising for Tesla. In the case of the Taycan, the Roadster sales will only be higher for that market segment because of it.

So the more hype on the Taycan that spreads, the more Tesla benefits.

Of course the market for $200K cars are small. Porsche is fine with that. I see this being a sustained strong seller, maybe not at the sales numbers Porsche been hyping among the elite it will be an alternative to Tesla (expect this to do very well in California).

The $200K avg price is due to Porsche being the most profitable brand out there and contributing mightily to VW's net profit. Bloomberg states Porsche makes an average of $17K..........Yes, $17K profit per vehicle. Porsche is not going to let an EV dent that average.

 

[GBleck]

Holly *sugar* I hadn't looked at my portfolio last month. Solar Edge jumped again. Anyone know why? Nice...

Ahhh... I see they don't have to compete against Huawei in the US now. Nice accidental hedge.